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foreign

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[Music]

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[Laughter]

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[Music]

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welcome back friends to another episode

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of liminal frames I'm your host Nathan

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joined by my friend colleague compatriot

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partner in crime Darren EXO Academia and

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Darren before we went on the air uh we

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were kind of talking about how nothing's

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been going on it's been a really slow uh

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few days for both of us

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um pretty boring you know nothing

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extraordinary happening uh which is

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really weird I don't I don't know that

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this doesn't seem right to Me Maybe

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that's not what we were talking about

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indeed that's not what I remember and

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this this uh prompts me to see this for

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the second time a French phrase oh

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um yeah we're kind of joking there

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because actually sometimes when Nathan

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and I catch up before we go on the air

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it's just a parade of insane

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synchronicities and trying to make sense

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of what's going on in our lives and

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what's happening in our world and um

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sometimes on the show you only get to

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hear a part of it uh just because you

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know some of it's sensitive some of it's

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personal but but I think we're going to

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roll out more and more as time goes on

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but as I've kind of been hinting for a

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long time there's there's things going

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on uh in the deepest trenches of reality

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I would suggest in addition to us just

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sort of talking about these Topics in a

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kind of Academic Way so one of the

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things we try to do in this show is is

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tread that line right between

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the metaphysical implications of what's

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actually happening in our reality and

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trying to with some some sort of

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academic uh you know

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perspective talk about these things as

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well so that we don't get caught up in a

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particular thing but we can't deny the

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fact that things really are happening in

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our reality and and that's probably the

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most compelling aspect of all yeah I'm

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so glad you talked about that because it

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is important that we bring our whole

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personhood into the conversation it's

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not just an academic as you said

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exercise or at arm's length with this

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content and theories it it does

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intersect with who we are and uh and

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what we are experiencing in our

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day-to-day lives and uh sometimes in

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very profound and kind of

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world-shattering types of ways so it's

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important to kind of wrestle through

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that and uh you know tease out the the

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underlying threads and and maybe the

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bigger picture at Play

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and that's something that we want to

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spend some time on on the episode this

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evening and it's talking through uh

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these kinds of we Minds we spaces uh how

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that works uh does it work and how that

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might be different from our modern

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conception of of Consciousness where

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it's uh you know sort of situated just

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inside your brain and there's nothing

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magical or different or crazy that

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happens when you gather with another

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person and you have a conversation it's

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just two minds you know sort of housed

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within their skulls having a

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conversation and and we want to kind of

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explore that and ask is that really all

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that's happening and and what kinds of

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things are created from this interplay

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of conscious entities and so I don't

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know Darren where do you want to begin

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with this and kind of thinking through

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this we space we mind concept

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well I think about some of our

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discussions around Donald Hoffman's work

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and he talks about

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the sense that you have an individual

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conscious agent which on the one hand

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you could you know really reduce that

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down to uh you know an atom or a quark

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something really really tiny microscopic

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or just an individual like you or I

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right that we are a conscious agent

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but what he also points out is that even

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mathematically it works in his model

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that when you and I are talking together

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right and we we represent the spirit if

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you will of liminal frames that becomes

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its own kind of conscious agent which is

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more than the sum of its parts it kind

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of takes on a life of its own right and

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that's a lot of what we'll talk about

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tonight in terms of tulpas and evergors

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and these different Notions that have

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existed in ancient like Buddhist

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traditions and more recently in

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theosophy and things

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um

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the sense that

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it's not this cold uh detached thing

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like we've been presented in physicalism

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that really when Consciousness

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intersects and interacts so these

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different conscious agents that

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produces something that can sometimes

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take on a life of its own so one of the

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things we'll we'll tackle tonight is

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several different sort of areas and

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genres of human history and groups that

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have existed but how each of them kind

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of demonstrate this this uh alchemical

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kind of process right where

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Consciousness joins together and becomes

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a thing of its own sometimes for good

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sometimes maybe not so for good but um

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but nevertheless it seems to happen and

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it's interesting how it's not just

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something that you hear about in like

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the occultic kind of traditions and

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whatnot but also like I say even in

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modern conceptions of of reality that

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smile like Donald Hoffman puts forward

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as an actual model that can be tested

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scientifically in the long run yes well

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let's start with some

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Notions around this that we are familiar

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with in our own experience both as

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individuals but also in our academic

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training and that's looking at some uh

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some examples of group mind and group

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thinking in in history so here I I'm

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speaking specifically to religious

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rituals that are you know made a part of

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everyone's uh you know not everyone but

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many people who practice a particular

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religious uh system they're very

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familiar with what these things look

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like

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um in Christianity uh the tradition that

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I grew up in there are several rituals

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that I think even if you weren't a

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Christian you'll be a little bit

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familiar with you know so things like

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going to church every Sunday and singing

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you know songs together and uh

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participating in What's called the

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Eucharist or communion uh you know

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saying prayers prayers that also follow

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a kind of formulaic style and that

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varies of course by the uh congregation

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or community of Believers

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um there's a there's a there's a kind of

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uh unique imprint or formula that each

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Community follows and so that it's a way

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of signaling that you're in the

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community and maybe out of the community

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um

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reading the the text itself uh and

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reading it in a certain way believing

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that reading the text uh you know has a

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has a has has a sort of higher level

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meaning not just a an on face value but

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there are multiple layers of meaning at

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work uh in that process of of reading

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and listening to that material so all of

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these different practices are not

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practiced in isolation although

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sometimes they are but often or most

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often they're practiced in a community

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and it's that community of practitioners

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that over time becomes as we said just a

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minute ago becomes something of its own

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uh that it takes on a life of its own

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identity of its own uh you know people

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if you're in a community like a small

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town you might know oh I know there's

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people down you know at such and such

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met Methodist or whatever they're like

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this you know and hopefully it's you

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know generally good uh although if

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you're a Baptist sometimes there's like

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this where between well the method is

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they're like this and the methods are

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like this uh but you know there's an

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identity that basically is created there

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and I think not only is that present in

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in charge history but we could talk a

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little bit later too about how it's

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present in all these different facets of

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our own Modern Life uh that aren't just

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centered around religious belief uh and

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it's funny we've we've gotten really

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accustomed to sort of boxing religion to

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this sort of separate kind of corner and

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saying well I don't do religion anymore

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I'm a modernist I'm a rationalist you

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know I I don't think I'm I'm not I don't

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have beliefs you know I I just you know

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I live with a reality man uh well we got

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news for you so anyway those are some uh

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you know things that I think about in

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terms of

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how we space is created and crafted

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through through shared practices but

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Darren what what are some examples from

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your own experience and and how do you

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think about those things

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yeah I think it's interesting because

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you know it's building out what you're

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just saying there these begin as things

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that are generated but then they become

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generative in themselves right they they

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that's what we mean by taking on a life

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of their own and you make really good

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point there that you know sometimes

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modern people will think that we're done

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with that kind of

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um aspect of our history our history and

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we're now objective right and and uh and

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detached and kind of you know

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um

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not swayed by those things that we like

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we used to be and and therefore not even

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believing that these things could have a

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life of their own then of course that

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strong belief in that is something that

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has taken on a life of its own so much

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so that you become blind to it right

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that's part of the the irony here

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but in terms of of Christian history and

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how that even relates to more modern

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findings in in physics and whatnot

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something I find really interesting is I

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remember this this one time I went into

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a uh I was in Germany for a while so

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after I graduated high school I went to

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Europe for a while and

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um actually spend some time uh staying

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with a friend who would actually get an

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exchange program when I was in high

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school so I went and stayed with him in

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Germany and he came and stayed with my

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family and

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um when I was there in Germany it was

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very interesting because it's a very

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post-christian Society there much more

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than the United States right so but

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what's funny is you'll still have like I

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think one of the uh one of the the

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political parties I think might have

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even been called the Christian democrats

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right but but that wasn't what it sounds

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like right like that's kind of again the

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historical underpinning but that's not

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really what they're at now and he was a

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committed atheist

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but he took me into the Catholic Church

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you know somewhere uh uh in Mainz

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Germany I think it was where we were and

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you know he did the whole like holy

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water thing before he walked in and you

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know he was I could tell he was like

277
00:10:39,350 --> 00:10:38,220
buying me like you're gonna do the right

278
00:10:41,269 --> 00:10:39,360
ritual right like you're not gonna

279
00:10:43,430 --> 00:10:41,279
embarrass me and I said to him

280
00:10:45,829 --> 00:10:43,440
afterwards but front she told me you're

281
00:10:47,630 --> 00:10:45,839
an atheist she's like well yeah I'm like

282
00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:47,640
so why do you even care about all these

283
00:10:51,769 --> 00:10:49,740
like you know these rituals he's like

284
00:10:53,930 --> 00:10:51,779
well because you know this is just what

285
00:10:55,610 --> 00:10:53,940
we do and so he was still attached to

286
00:10:57,590 --> 00:10:55,620
rituals even though he'd ripped out the

287
00:10:59,690 --> 00:10:57,600
underlying meaning

288
00:11:01,670 --> 00:10:59,700
but that also reminded me of this one

289
00:11:03,650 --> 00:11:01,680
time I I heard this dialogue between

290
00:11:06,050 --> 00:11:03,660
kind of a physicalist right someone who

291
00:11:07,730 --> 00:11:06,060
reduces all of reality to basically

292
00:11:10,009 --> 00:11:07,740
these physical properties that can be

293
00:11:11,930 --> 00:11:10,019
measured right in the sense that these

294
00:11:14,210 --> 00:11:11,940
measurements actually represent reality

295
00:11:16,370 --> 00:11:14,220
which is is quite Preposterous and you

296
00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:16,380
know uh our our philosopher friend

297
00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:18,240
Bernardo Castro has talked about that a

298
00:11:23,150 --> 00:11:20,100
lot but I remember this one time I saw

299
00:11:25,610 --> 00:11:23,160
this program where this this person who

300
00:11:27,889 --> 00:11:25,620
was actually spiritual and had religious

301
00:11:29,449 --> 00:11:27,899
belief was talking to like a detective

302
00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:29,459
that was basically you know a

303
00:11:32,690 --> 00:11:31,440
physicalist and they're like so tell me

304
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:32,700
about this water here and I said well

305
00:11:36,110 --> 00:11:34,800
it's holy water it's like right but it's

306
00:11:37,970 --> 00:11:36,120
just water right

307
00:11:39,530 --> 00:11:37,980
and then the guy's like well I don't

308
00:11:41,449 --> 00:11:39,540
know how to answer that question because

309
00:11:42,889 --> 00:11:41,459
basically they were coming in from two

310
00:11:45,530 --> 00:11:42,899
completely different paradigms right

311
00:11:46,250 --> 00:11:45,540
they they had no way to sink up in the

312
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,260
middle

313
00:11:50,030 --> 00:11:48,480
and what's interesting is again to a

314
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:50,040
modern person they might say yeah that

315
00:11:53,569 --> 00:11:51,839
person who had religious belief is

316
00:11:55,069 --> 00:11:53,579
believing silly things right and we're

317
00:11:56,210 --> 00:11:55,079
done with that kind of medieval

318
00:11:57,590 --> 00:11:56,220
silliness

319
00:12:00,769 --> 00:11:57,600
but what's very interesting is they've

320
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:00,779
done studies experiments recently

321
00:12:06,009 --> 00:12:03,360
where they will actually have people

322
00:12:09,889 --> 00:12:06,019
send positive intention or pray over

323
00:12:11,389 --> 00:12:09,899
like as a single cell or an amoeba or

324
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,399
even water

325
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:13,440
rights send positive intention into

326
00:12:19,550 --> 00:12:16,800
water and then use that water to water

327
00:12:21,650 --> 00:12:19,560
certain plants and use another set of

328
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:21,660
water that people actually send all

329
00:12:26,449 --> 00:12:24,000
sorts of uh kind of negative energy into

330
00:12:28,850 --> 00:12:26,459
anger or fear right and actually they

331
00:12:30,829 --> 00:12:28,860
concentrated us into the water and then

332
00:12:32,750 --> 00:12:30,839
use that to water other plants and they

333
00:12:34,910 --> 00:12:32,760
were just a monsterable difference in

334
00:12:36,949 --> 00:12:34,920
the growth of those plants and this is

335
00:12:40,190 --> 00:12:36,959
like scientifically done right this is

336
00:12:42,829 --> 00:12:40,200
like rigorous protocols this works this

337
00:12:44,569 --> 00:12:42,839
happens right so this is refuting this

338
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:44,579
kind of Hardline physicalism that says

339
00:12:48,590 --> 00:12:46,560
these things aren't possible and that

340
00:12:50,509 --> 00:12:48,600
Consciousness alone can't impact our

341
00:12:52,490 --> 00:12:50,519
physical reality so I just thought it

342
00:12:54,970 --> 00:12:52,500
was interesting reflecting on all those

343
00:12:58,430 --> 00:12:54,980
those aspects when you brought that up

344
00:12:59,930 --> 00:12:58,440
yeah and it uh well the work there I'm

345
00:13:02,509 --> 00:12:59,940
thinking of is uh the work from Bill

346
00:13:04,970 --> 00:13:02,519
Bankston as well uh you know kind of

347
00:13:08,030 --> 00:13:04,980
that same kind of intention and healing

348
00:13:10,910 --> 00:13:08,040
and healing at a distance uh so

349
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:10,920
certainly related areas of inquiry that

350
00:13:17,569 --> 00:13:14,000
have been studied very vigorously

351
00:13:19,610 --> 00:13:17,579
and also I think too here of growing up

352
00:13:22,670 --> 00:13:19,620
and I'm sure you have some examples with

353
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:22,680
this as well of how it sometimes doesn't

354
00:13:27,650 --> 00:13:24,959
work you know we kind of in in religious

355
00:13:30,590 --> 00:13:27,660
communities we uh sometimes can get

356
00:13:32,750 --> 00:13:30,600
really wrapped up in the power of prayer

357
00:13:36,170 --> 00:13:32,760
and talk about well we just all pray

358
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:36,180
together and uh you know focus our minds

359
00:13:40,430 --> 00:13:38,399
in the same direction well we're going

360
00:13:42,110 --> 00:13:40,440
to something or something miraculous

361
00:13:44,569 --> 00:13:42,120
will happen it's just like that's just

362
00:13:46,430 --> 00:13:44,579
how this works and odds of a mustard

363
00:13:49,069 --> 00:13:46,440
seed can move a mountain right exactly

364
00:13:52,069 --> 00:13:49,079
brother uh so you know there's a lot of

365
00:13:55,129 --> 00:13:52,079
examples like that but it doesn't always

366
00:13:57,889 --> 00:13:55,139
work right so then that that's where the

367
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:57,899
the skeptic or the jaded believer will

368
00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:00,000
kind of have a moment where they're like

369
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:02,639
I don't believe in this anymore

370
00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:04,560
um you know I can remember growing up

371
00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:07,740
there was a a young woman in our youth

372
00:14:11,329 --> 00:14:09,540
group she was in the tragic like a

373
00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:11,339
really severe car accident was rest

374
00:14:15,290 --> 00:14:13,320
Hospital the whole youth group was

375
00:14:16,910 --> 00:14:15,300
praying for her and she didn't make it

376
00:14:19,610 --> 00:14:16,920
you know and I can only imagine like

377
00:14:22,190 --> 00:14:19,620
kind of how that affected others in the

378
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:22,200
group in terms of whether they decided

379
00:14:25,910 --> 00:14:24,360
to remain Believers or not and of course

380
00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:25,920
the church Community itself wrestled

381
00:14:31,069 --> 00:14:28,200
with that for a very long time

382
00:14:34,069 --> 00:14:31,079
uh and so I bring that up to say that

383
00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:34,079
it's not it's not it's funny how we

384
00:14:41,329 --> 00:14:37,920
apply kind of a scientific framework in

385
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,339
that in those examples to uh to that

386
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:43,680
practice thinking well if I just put in

387
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:46,079
these inputs I will get these outputs

388
00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:48,959
and you're not seeing that happen at

389
00:14:52,250 --> 00:14:49,800
least you're not seeing that happen

390
00:14:54,590 --> 00:14:52,260
reliably but that's not reason

391
00:14:57,230 --> 00:14:54,600
necessarily to say well it doesn't work

392
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:57,240
or there isn't any truth to that it just

393
00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:01,199
means that there is a a more complex or

394
00:15:07,009 --> 00:15:04,079
mysterious or uh you know dynamic

395
00:15:10,009 --> 00:15:07,019
interaction that is taking place that

396
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:10,019
doesn't conform to our our Pure

397
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:11,760
intention and that's a critique that you

398
00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:13,920
hear a lot from folks that aren't into

399
00:15:18,230 --> 00:15:16,800
idealism that well if idealism you know

400
00:15:20,269 --> 00:15:18,240
the all the idealists think that they

401
00:15:22,189 --> 00:15:20,279
can just you know change the world just

402
00:15:23,629 --> 00:15:22,199
by thinking about it and uh you know

403
00:15:26,509 --> 00:15:23,639
we've touched on that critique before

404
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:26,519
and I think it you know on face it seems

405
00:15:31,610 --> 00:15:29,279
like a very valid one but really when

406
00:15:35,569 --> 00:15:31,620
you kind of explore the ways in which

407
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:35,579
reality is uh is stitched together with

408
00:15:40,009 --> 00:15:37,199
all of these two different conscious

409
00:15:41,689 --> 00:15:40,019
agents and conscious Asian activity it

410
00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:41,699
makes sense that it wouldn't be just as

411
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:43,740
simple as well I want to think this and

412
00:15:50,810 --> 00:15:46,320
therefore you know reality itself has

413
00:15:52,610 --> 00:15:50,820
changed at a fundamental level so I

414
00:15:53,629 --> 00:15:52,620
don't know what what

415
00:15:56,509 --> 00:15:53,639
um

416
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:56,519
like how do you think in terms of

417
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:58,320
putting these things together putting

418
00:16:03,889 --> 00:16:01,199
them in practice uh and how does it

419
00:16:07,009 --> 00:16:03,899
transform reality you know what are the

420
00:16:08,750 --> 00:16:07,019
limitations of it uh you know what are

421
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:08,760
some other manifestations of this

422
00:16:13,490 --> 00:16:11,279
concept kind of practice that we see in

423
00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:13,500
in the world around us

424
00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:14,940
yeah I was thinking when you were

425
00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:16,740
describing there the people's critique

426
00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:18,600
of this kind of idealistic perspective

427
00:16:22,670 --> 00:16:21,300
but really as you and I both know what

428
00:16:25,009 --> 00:16:22,680
they're describing is kind of solipsism

429
00:16:27,050 --> 00:16:25,019
right the sense that all that really is

430
00:16:28,490 --> 00:16:27,060
is your own Consciousness and if that

431
00:16:32,030 --> 00:16:28,500
were the case then sure you can shape

432
00:16:34,009 --> 00:16:32,040
reality to whatever uh your your whims

433
00:16:35,870 --> 00:16:34,019
are but what we're actually seeing as an

434
00:16:38,269 --> 00:16:35,880
idealism we are in kind of a Dreamscape

435
00:16:40,910 --> 00:16:38,279
but it's it's held in mind at large to

436
00:16:43,490 --> 00:16:40,920
use bernardo's language again so we are

437
00:16:46,189 --> 00:16:43,500
kind of characters within the dream that

438
00:16:47,749 --> 00:16:46,199
are also ultimately iterations of source

439
00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:47,759
but we're also characters in the dreams

440
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,500
so we don't we don't have just like a

441
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:50,880
character in a play they can't go and

442
00:16:53,930 --> 00:16:52,320
rip up the set right I mean it doesn't

443
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:53,940
work that way

444
00:16:57,889 --> 00:16:55,980
um so there's some cohesion to the to

445
00:16:59,930 --> 00:16:57,899
the entire stage play

446
00:17:01,610 --> 00:16:59,940
what's your other point about you know

447
00:17:04,130 --> 00:17:01,620
we can't apply this sort of scientific

448
00:17:06,289 --> 00:17:04,140
formulaic reproducible kind of

449
00:17:08,329 --> 00:17:06,299
expectation right oh so we we found out

450
00:17:10,850 --> 00:17:08,339
that faith of a mustard seed moves

451
00:17:12,530 --> 00:17:10,860
mountains so you know anybody you know

452
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:12,540
regardless of who they are in their

453
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:14,760
background and how uh you know

454
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:16,319
consciously developed they are or not

455
00:17:19,549 --> 00:17:17,760
should be able to apply this principle

456
00:17:20,809 --> 00:17:19,559
we should see a result we don't it

457
00:17:22,730 --> 00:17:20,819
doesn't work right

458
00:17:24,770 --> 00:17:22,740
but

459
00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:24,780
of course the the added factor that

460
00:17:28,429 --> 00:17:26,160
needs to be taken into consideration

461
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,439
there is the level of Consciousness

462
00:17:34,010 --> 00:17:31,440
brought to bear on that that is one of

463
00:17:36,590 --> 00:17:34,020
the factors so we as of yet have no

464
00:17:38,029 --> 00:17:36,600
scientific way of testing that other

465
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:38,039
than there's some very interesting

466
00:17:42,289 --> 00:17:40,080
studies that have been done we'll take

467
00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:42,299
people who have meditated for 30 40

468
00:17:47,630 --> 00:17:44,760
years right and they'll actually study

469
00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:47,640
how their brains actually operate

470
00:17:51,409 --> 00:17:49,500
compared to someone who doesn't and

471
00:17:54,169 --> 00:17:51,419
they're very very different so we do see

472
00:17:56,330 --> 00:17:54,179
examples where conscious intention and

473
00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:56,340
conscious practice over time like with

474
00:18:01,250 --> 00:17:59,760
methods like meditation really do change

475
00:18:03,049 --> 00:18:01,260
things and actually that these people

476
00:18:04,909 --> 00:18:03,059
seem to

477
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:04,919
begin to interact with reality

478
00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:06,720
differently right so this is very

479
00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:08,580
interesting and this is what I would say

480
00:18:13,250 --> 00:18:11,340
here is that even what we see with the

481
00:18:14,750 --> 00:18:13,260
others right the aliens or the

482
00:18:16,270 --> 00:18:14,760
inter-dimensionals or whatever you want

483
00:18:18,650 --> 00:18:16,280
to call them the different

484
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:18,660
sets of others that are part of this

485
00:18:23,450 --> 00:18:21,240
Grand Cosmic mystery

486
00:18:25,549 --> 00:18:23,460
they seem to have a different

487
00:18:28,010 --> 00:18:25,559
relationship with reality itself and as

488
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:28,020
we've said many times when these changes

489
00:18:31,370 --> 00:18:29,520
happen it's not just that you see the

490
00:18:33,289 --> 00:18:31,380
world differently the world you see is

491
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:33,299
different the world you interact with is

492
00:18:37,610 --> 00:18:35,520
different your fundamental relationship

493
00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:37,620
with reality is different because if

494
00:18:43,310 --> 00:18:41,100
Consciousness is primary then then

495
00:18:45,770 --> 00:18:43,320
as your Consciousness grows and sort of

496
00:18:49,130 --> 00:18:45,780
passes this threshold then suddenly

497
00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:49,140
you're able to through

498
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:51,120
things like thought forms actually

499
00:18:56,990 --> 00:18:53,520
manipulate what we perceive as physical

500
00:18:59,390 --> 00:18:57,000
reality right directly I really want to

501
00:19:01,789 --> 00:18:59,400
hit on that the the the the significance

502
00:19:03,529 --> 00:19:01,799
the emphasis being on what we perceive

503
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:03,539
as physical reality because again the

504
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:05,600
whole point with idealism is that

505
00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:07,919
underlyingly everything is consciousness

506
00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:10,860
there is no table and a Nathan it's all

507
00:19:15,409 --> 00:19:12,900
Consciousness right they take different

508
00:19:17,630 --> 00:19:15,419
forms they have kind of different uh

509
00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:17,640
vibrational kind of signatures But

510
00:19:21,650 --> 00:19:19,020
ultimately it's all it's all

511
00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:21,660
Consciousness so that being the case it

512
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:23,760
should not surprise us as we increase

513
00:19:28,610 --> 00:19:26,640
our Consciousness capacities we will

514
00:19:30,529 --> 00:19:28,620
fundamentally change our relationship

515
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,539
with physical reality because physical

516
00:19:34,970 --> 00:19:32,640
reality ultimately is just a derivative

517
00:19:37,549 --> 00:19:34,980
state of something that ultimately is

518
00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:37,559
consciousness

519
00:19:43,850 --> 00:19:41,340
and how does this uh come into play with

520
00:19:46,250 --> 00:19:43,860
things like um

521
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:46,260
you know sort of society let level

522
00:19:51,230 --> 00:19:49,440
Behavior or culture uh you know I think

523
00:19:53,390 --> 00:19:51,240
it was I think it very well does right

524
00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:53,400
so you can look through history at

525
00:19:58,310 --> 00:19:54,840
different cultures and their different

526
00:20:00,770 --> 00:19:58,320
belief systems uh their cultures became

527
00:20:03,289 --> 00:20:00,780
uh you know sort of mirrors of those

528
00:20:06,409 --> 00:20:03,299
individual belief systems or or smaller

529
00:20:08,650 --> 00:20:06,419
group belief systems and and we see a

530
00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:08,660
movement of change over time as well

531
00:20:13,549 --> 00:20:11,700
throughout history that uh there was a

532
00:20:15,890 --> 00:20:13,559
time in in human history where there

533
00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:15,900
were a lot of Empires and there was a

534
00:20:20,210 --> 00:20:18,480
lot of Warring and tribalism there

535
00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:20,220
obviously there's still a lot of that

536
00:20:27,230 --> 00:20:23,100
happening now but but we have the added

537
00:20:30,650 --> 00:20:27,240
component of globalism and market

538
00:20:33,169 --> 00:20:30,660
economies and and corporatism uh we've

539
00:20:35,630 --> 00:20:33,179
got things as recently as uh the the

540
00:20:36,890 --> 00:20:35,640
citizens united Supreme Court case which

541
00:20:40,190 --> 00:20:36,900
basically gives kind of the level of

542
00:20:43,250 --> 00:20:40,200
personhood to corporations so we have

543
00:20:48,610 --> 00:20:43,260
different manifestations of of group

544
00:20:53,090 --> 00:20:48,620
thinking of group identities over time

545
00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:53,100
do these Concepts uh do they exist in

546
00:20:56,570 --> 00:20:55,200
sort of other cultures than than just

547
00:20:58,970 --> 00:20:56,580
kind of the western way of thinking I

548
00:21:01,070 --> 00:20:58,980
know we've talked about before like in

549
00:21:03,169 --> 00:21:01,080
Buddhism for example this notion of the

550
00:21:05,390 --> 00:21:03,179
tulpa you know maybe you want to impact

551
00:21:08,270 --> 00:21:05,400
that that definition and and how does

552
00:21:11,450 --> 00:21:08,280
that conception influence what we think

553
00:21:14,450 --> 00:21:11,460
about in in this conversation

554
00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:14,460
right one of the aspects that I've

555
00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:16,980
discussed with you a lot at length is

556
00:21:23,330 --> 00:21:20,160
the overlap between and the Synergy

557
00:21:26,690 --> 00:21:23,340
between Notions like idealism as a

558
00:21:28,730 --> 00:21:26,700
metaphysical model and then uh you know

559
00:21:31,490 --> 00:21:28,740
the Dante can even nail the dantech

560
00:21:34,430 --> 00:21:31,500
perspectives on Ultimate Reality kind of

561
00:21:37,010 --> 00:21:34,440
non-dual perspectives and then even some

562
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:37,020
of the channeled material we have some

563
00:21:40,669 --> 00:21:38,159
of what I would consider some of the

564
00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:40,679
best Channel material from the others

565
00:21:45,230 --> 00:21:43,919
often depicts a very very similar notion

566
00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:45,240
about reality I was saying this to

567
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:46,980
before it went on the air that I've been

568
00:21:51,529 --> 00:21:49,919
reading some Channel material recently

569
00:21:53,330 --> 00:21:51,539
with a group that people would sort of

570
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:53,340
perceive as the Zetas I think it's more

571
00:21:56,930 --> 00:21:55,200
complex than just being an

572
00:21:58,850 --> 00:21:56,940
extraterrestrial species from Zeta

573
00:22:00,350 --> 00:21:58,860
reticuli but that's one way we can think

574
00:22:02,330 --> 00:22:00,360
about it is one way that looks right

575
00:22:03,950 --> 00:22:02,340
from a certain perspective

576
00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:03,960
as I've said many times I think these

577
00:22:08,930 --> 00:22:05,460
Notions like interdimensional

578
00:22:10,669 --> 00:22:08,940
extraterrestrial uh you know extra 10

579
00:22:12,770 --> 00:22:10,679
pastoral they'll all kind of collapse

580
00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:12,780
once we have a more robust understanding

581
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:14,460
of reality itself

582
00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:16,320
but what's very interesting is that

583
00:22:21,409 --> 00:22:19,260
these these channeled materials reflect

584
00:22:24,110 --> 00:22:21,419
a kind of reality that these others

585
00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:24,120
depict which very much fits you know

586
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:26,960
with this notion of idealism and and

587
00:22:32,330 --> 00:22:29,760
neovedantic non-dual perspectives on

588
00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:32,340
reality so

589
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:35,100
it's interesting because in Buddhism

590
00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:36,720
a couple things come to mind I was

591
00:22:39,710 --> 00:22:37,679
saying to you before I went on the air

592
00:22:42,289 --> 00:22:39,720
that I was speaking to someone today

593
00:22:45,169 --> 00:22:42,299
who's had remarkable anomalous

594
00:22:47,149 --> 00:22:45,179
experiences their entire lives and they

595
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:47,159
have actually been able to go to a place

596
00:22:51,890 --> 00:22:49,919
kind of at will

597
00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:51,900
and and basically it's a place that

598
00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:53,400
feels kind of like a void there's

599
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,380
nothing there on the one hand it's it's

600
00:22:59,390 --> 00:22:57,360
there's no light but at the same time

601
00:23:01,490 --> 00:22:59,400
you can still see which I get again kind

602
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:01,500
of uh you know plays with our

603
00:23:05,630 --> 00:23:02,640
understanding of what does that mean

604
00:23:07,250 --> 00:23:05,640
exactly but but again try to think of

605
00:23:08,990 --> 00:23:07,260
this physical reality as a derivative of

606
00:23:12,529 --> 00:23:09,000
some deeper structure right so in this

607
00:23:14,029 --> 00:23:12,539
in this place we'll say he can see even

608
00:23:17,570 --> 00:23:14,039
though it looks like there's no light

609
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:17,580
and and it seems empty and yet it's full

610
00:23:24,770 --> 00:23:20,640
he senses with the the potential of

611
00:23:30,110 --> 00:23:27,350
what's interesting about that is that

612
00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:30,120
he has no background in Buddhism or

613
00:23:34,250 --> 00:23:32,580
vedantic thought but this is very very

614
00:23:36,649 --> 00:23:34,260
similar to the kind of void that's

615
00:23:39,350 --> 00:23:36,659
described in those traditions and then

616
00:23:41,090 --> 00:23:39,360
in the deepest uh sort of most

617
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:41,100
uh Progressive versions of those

618
00:23:45,169 --> 00:23:43,200
Traditions they recognize that

619
00:23:46,730 --> 00:23:45,179
ultimately those two things are not two

620
00:23:48,890 --> 00:23:46,740
non-duality right we're back at

621
00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:48,900
non-duality again that both this is

622
00:23:53,149 --> 00:23:50,880
nothingness the void but also the

623
00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:53,159
potential for everything is there and

624
00:23:58,130 --> 00:23:55,320
and also he when he goes there he kind

625
00:24:00,169 --> 00:23:58,140
of has this direct ability to access all

626
00:24:01,789 --> 00:24:00,179
information across time for any sentient

627
00:24:03,890 --> 00:24:01,799
being that's ever existed right because

628
00:24:06,409 --> 00:24:03,900
in time in that place does not exist

629
00:24:09,409 --> 00:24:06,419
right time itself is also one of the

630
00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:09,419
derivative kind of byproducts that arise

631
00:24:13,669 --> 00:24:11,820
as something we think we experience in

632
00:24:16,190 --> 00:24:13,679
this construct but it's not ultimately

633
00:24:18,529 --> 00:24:16,200
true of what underlying reality is like

634
00:24:22,130 --> 00:24:18,539
so it's interesting that in Buddhism

635
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:22,140
there is this real focus on

636
00:24:26,029 --> 00:24:24,240
this sense that be really disciplined

637
00:24:27,529 --> 00:24:26,039
about understanding your mind understand

638
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:27,539
how

639
00:24:35,330 --> 00:24:32,880
to uh take hold of The reigns of the

640
00:24:36,830 --> 00:24:35,340
monkey mind that wants to run

641
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:36,840
um a thousand miles an hour I've said

642
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:38,880
many times on this podcast on a point of

643
00:24:44,029 --> 00:24:41,520
convergence that we actually have the

644
00:24:46,430 --> 00:24:44,039
ability already because we are an

645
00:24:47,930 --> 00:24:46,440
iteration of source we are leaves on the

646
00:24:49,789 --> 00:24:47,940
tree that is source

647
00:24:51,409 --> 00:24:49,799
we have the ability to see it as far

648
00:24:54,110 --> 00:24:51,419
into the Horizon as we need we can

649
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:54,120
actually access that kind of void that

650
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:55,440
where the potential of everything is

651
00:24:58,669 --> 00:24:56,640
there and it's also a kind of

652
00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:58,679
nothingness because it's pre-fore right

653
00:25:03,470 --> 00:25:00,720
there's no form yet but it has the

654
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,480
potential energy of everything basically

655
00:25:07,850 --> 00:25:05,760
but but what's interesting is in in

656
00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:07,860
Buddhism they will really get you to

657
00:25:12,529 --> 00:25:10,200
focus on being very disciplined about

658
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:12,539
what your mind does right clear your

659
00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:15,360
mind as you clear your mind these other

660
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:17,640
broader aspects of reality begin to rise

661
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:19,320
up into your awareness because you're

662
00:25:22,850 --> 00:25:21,120
finally not being blocked by these

663
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:22,860
things that are just coming up I got to

664
00:25:25,490 --> 00:25:24,240
get the groceries tomorrow I gotta talk

665
00:25:26,690 --> 00:25:25,500
to this person why did that person look

666
00:25:28,430 --> 00:25:26,700
at me that way yesterday what did that

667
00:25:30,590 --> 00:25:28,440
mean you know like all these things that

668
00:25:32,590 --> 00:25:30,600
fill our mind once we're able to quiet

669
00:25:34,970 --> 00:25:32,600
the mind then this deeper reality

670
00:25:36,830 --> 00:25:34,980
exposes itself and it was always there

671
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:36,840
the same way that you know there's that

672
00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:38,580
notion we talked about before everyone

673
00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:41,460
is the Buddha and potential right

674
00:25:45,710 --> 00:25:44,100
so along those lines getting to the

675
00:25:47,870 --> 00:25:45,720
tulpa thing there's also been this

676
00:25:50,029 --> 00:25:47,880
notion in Tibetan Buddhism that you can

677
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:50,039
actually produce a tulpa this this sense

678
00:25:55,610 --> 00:25:53,520
that you can through thought create an

679
00:25:57,529 --> 00:25:55,620
entity that takes on kind of a life of

680
00:25:59,390 --> 00:25:57,539
its own and what's very interesting

681
00:26:00,830 --> 00:25:59,400
about that is that again that kind of

682
00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:00,840
fits with this Consciousness first

683
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:02,880
perspective on reality fits with

684
00:26:07,730 --> 00:26:05,220
idealism and even you know the

685
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:07,740
theosophical society uh in the 20th

686
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:09,840
century whatnot actually took that

687
00:26:14,510 --> 00:26:12,000
notion began to actually produce

688
00:26:16,669 --> 00:26:14,520
experiments trying to sort of sort of

689
00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:16,679
mirroring modern science with this

690
00:26:20,330 --> 00:26:18,120
ancient sort of Tibetan Buddhist

691
00:26:23,210 --> 00:26:20,340
practice around tulpas to actually see

692
00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:23,220
if they could indeed produce an entity

693
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:24,900
that kind of takes on a life of its own

694
00:26:28,909 --> 00:26:26,880
in a measurable way which is really

695
00:26:31,970 --> 00:26:28,919
really interesting

696
00:26:35,330 --> 00:26:31,980
yeah that

697
00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:35,340
void conversation reminds me in seminary

698
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:37,380
of uh

699
00:26:42,289 --> 00:26:40,320
in the Hebrew Bible you know you'll be

700
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:42,299
familiar with this at the the moment of

701
00:26:45,890 --> 00:26:43,679
creation

702
00:26:48,649 --> 00:26:45,900
the spirit of God sort of hovers over

703
00:26:50,210 --> 00:26:48,659
the ocean over the waters and obviously

704
00:26:52,010 --> 00:26:50,220
it's all about it's quite metaphorical

705
00:26:54,890 --> 00:26:52,020
and nature but

706
00:26:57,409 --> 00:26:54,900
the Hebrew is formless and void

707
00:27:00,350 --> 00:26:57,419
so this is this intends potentiality to

708
00:27:02,029 --> 00:27:00,360
it that that the at the Inception of all

709
00:27:04,269 --> 00:27:02,039
that there is

710
00:27:06,409 --> 00:27:04,279
um so these are Concepts that are

711
00:27:08,210 --> 00:27:06,419
ingrained and you know I think quite

712
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:08,220
familiar to most people even if they

713
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:10,400
haven't necessarily heard them directly

714
00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:12,720
we also talk about this in our science

715
00:27:17,149 --> 00:27:14,400
let's not forget things like the big

716
00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:17,159
bang or singularities

717
00:27:22,250 --> 00:27:19,500
um you know black holes which have all

718
00:27:23,930 --> 00:27:22,260
of the information that uh that like

719
00:27:26,210 --> 00:27:23,940
they retain all the information that

720
00:27:29,390 --> 00:27:26,220
they absorb essentially but they are

721
00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:29,400
also kind of nothingness in our minds

722
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:31,620
avoid if you will so these are

723
00:27:38,450 --> 00:27:34,320
conceptions that exist in many different

724
00:27:40,669 --> 00:27:38,460
areas and when you see that uh happen

725
00:27:42,890 --> 00:27:40,679
that's a signal I think that there is

726
00:27:45,970 --> 00:27:42,900
some truth to it now when you see this

727
00:27:48,649 --> 00:27:45,980
take shape in a variety of different

728
00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:48,659
manifestations there is an underlying

729
00:27:55,549 --> 00:27:52,740
truth to that the tulpa conversation

730
00:27:58,430 --> 00:27:55,559
also made me think about our own

731
00:28:00,649 --> 00:27:58,440
conceptions of who we are so it's it's

732
00:28:03,409 --> 00:28:00,659
not that I can not just that I can think

733
00:28:05,930 --> 00:28:03,419
of an entity and that entity has a life

734
00:28:07,789 --> 00:28:05,940
of its own but that's essentially what

735
00:28:10,490 --> 00:28:07,799
I'm doing with my notion of self right

736
00:28:13,610 --> 00:28:10,500
I'm thinking of a Nathan and that that

737
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:13,620
Nathan exists you know in its own way

738
00:28:20,750 --> 00:28:17,279
that is independent of your version of

739
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:20,760
Nathan uh you know so you know we are

740
00:28:26,269 --> 00:28:22,320
doing this all the time it's just that

741
00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:26,279
it's so familiar to us it's it's uh we

742
00:28:30,470 --> 00:28:28,559
can't even see it we're kind of blind

743
00:28:32,269 --> 00:28:30,480
the fact that we're we're all we're all

744
00:28:35,149 --> 00:28:32,279
participating in this process and we're

745
00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:35,159
all doing it actively all the time

746
00:28:39,230 --> 00:28:37,440
um and this seems very mundane when you

747
00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:39,240
kind of step back and look at it from a

748
00:28:44,750 --> 00:28:42,000
different angle you realize how amazing

749
00:28:47,390 --> 00:28:44,760
it actually is and how it points to this

750
00:28:48,890 --> 00:28:47,400
deeper layer of reality that for

751
00:28:51,649 --> 00:28:48,900
whatever reason we just don't we don't

752
00:28:54,049 --> 00:28:51,659
tend to to think about very often

753
00:28:56,210 --> 00:28:54,059
yeah I love that it's a great point and

754
00:28:57,769 --> 00:28:56,220
like you say not only is your conception

755
00:29:00,049 --> 00:28:57,779
of yourself different than my conception

756
00:29:01,970 --> 00:29:00,059
of you right to some degree and a

757
00:29:04,090 --> 00:29:01,980
spiritual teacher of mine thomasubel

758
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:04,100
always taught me to

759
00:29:09,409 --> 00:29:06,480
make sure that I'm not referring to a

760
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:09,419
cache I'm c-a-c-h-e right this this

761
00:29:14,029 --> 00:29:12,240
version of Nathan that's in my mind in

762
00:29:15,710 --> 00:29:14,039
my memory that is actually not

763
00:29:18,110 --> 00:29:15,720
indicative of who's in front of me right

764
00:29:20,630 --> 00:29:18,120
now even though he's on a screen and you

765
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:20,640
know two hours away nevertheless the

766
00:29:25,310 --> 00:29:22,320
energy of the person who's manifesting

767
00:29:27,769 --> 00:29:25,320
right now am I present to that or am I

768
00:29:28,970 --> 00:29:27,779
kind of lazily referencing I I know

769
00:29:31,010 --> 00:29:28,980
Nathan I mean I've known him for a while

770
00:29:32,750 --> 00:29:31,020
now and this is the way he is so I'm

771
00:29:34,190 --> 00:29:32,760
sorry hearing the words you're saying

772
00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:34,200
but I know what he talks about so you

773
00:29:37,490 --> 00:29:35,700
know I don't need to like pay too much

774
00:29:39,470 --> 00:29:37,500
attention but when we do that in our

775
00:29:41,450 --> 00:29:39,480
relationships we actually are not in

776
00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:41,460
real time being with the energy as it's

777
00:29:46,490 --> 00:29:43,440
manifesting now right so we do get very

778
00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:46,500
lazy about it and to that point not only

779
00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:49,200
is my conception different than your

780
00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:51,120
conception of yourself

781
00:29:54,590 --> 00:29:52,860
especially if I'm being lazy and not

782
00:29:56,690 --> 00:29:54,600
being present to the energy as it is

783
00:29:58,190 --> 00:29:56,700
right now but on top of that your own

784
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:58,200
experience of yourself is different than

785
00:30:01,370 --> 00:29:59,760
what it was five years ago right or ten

786
00:30:03,409 --> 00:30:01,380
years ago but it's not like you sit

787
00:30:06,049 --> 00:30:03,419
around fretting about that going

788
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:06,059
what do I do about this like I

789
00:30:09,409 --> 00:30:07,919
what what do I have like is this

790
00:30:10,850 --> 00:30:09,419
dissociative identity disorder what's

791
00:30:12,889 --> 00:30:10,860
going on I'm not the same person that

792
00:30:15,169 --> 00:30:12,899
was five years ago and yet that's true

793
00:30:17,930 --> 00:30:15,179
for all of us especially if we are

794
00:30:20,570 --> 00:30:17,940
hopefully growing from the inputs the

795
00:30:22,909 --> 00:30:20,580
the catalysts that that life presents us

796
00:30:24,409 --> 00:30:22,919
right with hopefully we are growing and

797
00:30:26,029 --> 00:30:24,419
changing and yet we're okay with that we

798
00:30:28,430 --> 00:30:26,039
just kind of go with the flow right so

799
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:28,440
like you say that we kind of get duped

800
00:30:31,490 --> 00:30:30,000
into thinking it's not happening because

801
00:30:33,710 --> 00:30:31,500
there are things

802
00:30:36,409 --> 00:30:33,720
these realities we've been convinced of

803
00:30:38,450 --> 00:30:36,419
in our modern myth right was physicalism

804
00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:38,460
and why not the convince us that's not

805
00:30:41,330 --> 00:30:40,080
happening it's almost like a stage trick

806
00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:41,340
right where we actually believe that

807
00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:44,100
when if we really sit down and we're to

808
00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:45,960
take really close

809
00:30:49,310 --> 00:30:47,640
um really close attention to who we are

810
00:30:51,289 --> 00:30:49,320
and our belief structures and what we do

811
00:30:53,870 --> 00:30:51,299
and we compare it every five years we

812
00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:53,880
would see change right so there is kind

813
00:30:58,010 --> 00:30:55,380
of a big switch that happens there that

814
00:31:00,590 --> 00:30:58,020
we we don't even pay attention to so

815
00:31:04,130 --> 00:31:00,600
yeah that that's fascinating and uh I

816
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:04,140
think again it just speaks to how that's

817
00:31:09,289 --> 00:31:06,360
because our own modern culture has taken

818
00:31:10,730 --> 00:31:09,299
on a life of its own so it's so that we

819
00:31:12,169 --> 00:31:10,740
don't even see it for what it is it's

820
00:31:14,570 --> 00:31:12,179
right in front of our eyes we're somehow

821
00:31:16,870 --> 00:31:14,580
blind to it because we've taken on its

822
00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:16,880
very nature in many ways

823
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:20,159
yeah Amen to that and uh you know how

824
00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:22,080
often are you in a relationship with

825
00:31:27,049 --> 00:31:25,020
someone where you're not present to who

826
00:31:29,269 --> 00:31:27,059
they really are you're in a relationship

827
00:31:32,149 --> 00:31:29,279
with someone they used to be or someone

828
00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:32,159
who you have concocted uh so I think

829
00:31:36,529 --> 00:31:34,679
that's um really important to keep in

830
00:31:39,409 --> 00:31:36,539
mind just from a personal interaction

831
00:31:42,649 --> 00:31:39,419
perspective that yeah we try to practice

832
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:42,659
that powerful presence

833
00:31:47,630 --> 00:31:45,600
um in all of our interactions

834
00:31:49,010 --> 00:31:47,640
um well I know we talked about uh one

835
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:49,020
particular

836
00:31:54,529 --> 00:31:52,320
uh notable experiment that uh kind of

837
00:31:56,450 --> 00:31:54,539
toys with this idea and I think it'd be

838
00:31:59,330 --> 00:31:56,460
good to spend some time sharing that

839
00:32:01,610 --> 00:31:59,340
with our listeners so there was a

840
00:32:03,889 --> 00:32:01,620
Canadian group

841
00:32:05,149 --> 00:32:03,899
I guess they were with a theosophical

842
00:32:08,210 --> 00:32:05,159
group

843
00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:08,220
um who were participating in a a thought

844
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:10,440
experiment where they were coming up

845
00:32:14,269 --> 00:32:12,840
with an entity named Philip which I just

846
00:32:16,970 --> 00:32:14,279
love it's a synonym here here's our

847
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:16,980
friend Philip who we just made up uh not

848
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:18,720
a very creative name in my opinion but

849
00:32:21,950 --> 00:32:19,919
it's fine

850
00:32:24,649 --> 00:32:21,960
um so Philip was someone that these

851
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:24,659
individuals uh kind of pulled together

852
00:32:32,269 --> 00:32:29,279
their intention uh to uh to manifest and

853
00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:32,279
uh and and lo and behold over time uh

854
00:32:37,130 --> 00:32:34,620
they were they were getting feedback in

855
00:32:39,470 --> 00:32:37,140
their group sessions from

856
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:39,480
a Phillip uh you know so I wonder if you

857
00:32:42,529 --> 00:32:40,320
could talk a little bit more about that

858
00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:42,539
experiment and and kind of what does it

859
00:32:47,889 --> 00:32:44,640
tell us about what was happening with

860
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:47,899
these kinds of collective uh uh shared

861
00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:51,600
implementation processes rank that's I

862
00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:53,100
love that word meditation processes

863
00:32:56,330 --> 00:32:55,080
Would It Go 10 points right there okay

864
00:32:57,529 --> 00:32:56,340
so

865
00:32:58,850 --> 00:32:57,539
um yeah let's give a bit of background

866
00:33:00,350 --> 00:32:58,860
here I'm going to read the description

867
00:33:02,210 --> 00:33:00,360
of this this

868
00:33:03,950 --> 00:33:02,220
um experiment that was done by this

869
00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:03,960
group in Toronto and this was from

870
00:33:08,110 --> 00:33:06,179
Wikipedia so I'm quoting here the

871
00:33:11,149 --> 00:33:08,120
experiment was conducted by a Toronto

872
00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:11,159
parapsychological research Society led

873
00:33:16,730 --> 00:33:14,159
by mathematical geneticist Dr A.R George

874
00:33:19,549 --> 00:33:16,740
Owen and overseen by psychologist Dr

875
00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:19,559
Joel Whitten the test group consisted of

876
00:33:25,149 --> 00:33:22,500
Owen's wife Iris Owen former chairperson

877
00:33:28,009 --> 00:33:25,159
of Mensa in Canada Margaret Sparrow

878
00:33:30,649 --> 00:33:28,019
industrial designer of Andy H his wife

879
00:33:33,169 --> 00:33:30,659
Lauren hitting engineer Al peacock

880
00:33:35,330 --> 00:33:33,179
accountant bernus M bookkeeper Dorothy

881
00:33:38,269 --> 00:33:35,340
O'Donnell and sociology student Sydney

882
00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:38,279
Kane their goals were to create a

883
00:33:43,009 --> 00:33:40,140
fictional character through a purposeful

884
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:43,019
methodology and then attempt to

885
00:33:47,570 --> 00:33:45,360
communicate with it through sales

886
00:33:49,370 --> 00:33:47,580
the character created and agree to

887
00:33:51,549 --> 00:33:49,380
published named Philip aylesford

888
00:33:55,190 --> 00:33:51,559
referred to as Philip during the test

889
00:33:58,490 --> 00:33:55,200
his multiple contradictions and errors

890
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,500
oh sorry his fictional history Parts

891
00:34:02,090 --> 00:34:00,480
partially coincided with actual events

892
00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:02,100
in places but with multiple

893
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:04,740
contradictions and errors he was born in

894
00:34:09,290 --> 00:34:07,440
1624 in England had an early military

895
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:09,300
career and was knighted by the age of

896
00:34:13,310 --> 00:34:11,760
16. he was involved in the English Civil

897
00:34:16,129 --> 00:34:13,320
War and became personal friends with

898
00:34:18,349 --> 00:34:16,139
Charles II working for him as a spy

899
00:34:20,450 --> 00:34:18,359
Philip was unhappily married to a woman

900
00:34:22,909 --> 00:34:20,460
named Dorothea and later fell in love

901
00:34:24,950 --> 00:34:22,919
with a remaining girl who was accused of

902
00:34:28,010 --> 00:34:24,960
Witchcraft and burned at the stake in

903
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:28,020
despair Philip committed suicide in 1654

904
00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:32,639
at the age of 30. unquote so that is the

905
00:34:35,869 --> 00:34:34,679
basically the fictional history of a

906
00:34:38,570 --> 00:34:35,879
person that just to make clear to people

907
00:34:41,389 --> 00:34:38,580
this person never existed quote unquote

908
00:34:43,790 --> 00:34:41,399
right but they basically put together a

909
00:34:46,010 --> 00:34:43,800
biography of this person began to build

910
00:34:47,810 --> 00:34:46,020
up a sense of they them knowing this

911
00:34:51,409 --> 00:34:47,820
person right they take on a life of

912
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:51,419
Their Own and they then step experiments

913
00:34:56,089 --> 00:34:53,040
to see if they could actually begin to

914
00:34:58,010 --> 00:34:56,099
get responses independent of any of them

915
00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:58,020
that would suggest that this character

916
00:35:02,210 --> 00:35:00,240
had taken on a life of their own in

917
00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:02,220
physical reality so just jump into this

918
00:35:06,290 --> 00:35:03,780
next section here from the Wikipedia

919
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:06,300
article in terms of what happened

920
00:35:10,670 --> 00:35:08,640
quote the group was seated around a

921
00:35:12,829 --> 00:35:10,680
table with initial seances yielding no

922
00:35:14,930 --> 00:35:12,839
contact no communication and no

923
00:35:16,490 --> 00:35:14,940
phenomenon but when changed test

924
00:35:18,050 --> 00:35:16,500
conditions by dimming lights and

925
00:35:20,050 --> 00:35:18,060
changing the environment to mimic that

926
00:35:22,430 --> 00:35:20,060
of a more traditional Seance

927
00:35:25,849 --> 00:35:22,440
participants began feeling a presence

928
00:35:28,910 --> 00:35:25,859
table vibrations breezes unexplained

929
00:35:30,950 --> 00:35:28,920
Echoes and wrapping sounds which matched

930
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:30,960
responses to questions about Philip's

931
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:33,839
life at one point the table tilted on a

932
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:36,000
single leg and at other times moved

933
00:35:40,190 --> 00:35:38,000
across the room without human contact

934
00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:40,200
although audio video and witness

935
00:35:44,329 --> 00:35:41,820
accounts document the Paranormal

936
00:35:47,150 --> 00:35:44,339
phenomena Philip never appeared to the

937
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:47,160
participants unquote so that's basically

938
00:35:52,970 --> 00:35:49,920
some of the physical phenomena seemed to

939
00:35:54,829 --> 00:35:52,980
manifest which spoke to the notion that

940
00:35:57,950 --> 00:35:54,839
that this attempt was somewhat

941
00:36:00,589 --> 00:35:57,960
successful right that they had focused

942
00:36:02,329 --> 00:36:00,599
in a shared intention kind of way around

943
00:36:03,710 --> 00:36:02,339
creating this character to the point

944
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:03,720
where they basically believed themselves

945
00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:06,000
that this person was real and then they

946
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:06,720
could

947
00:36:11,210 --> 00:36:09,300
almost like a frankenstinian kind of you

948
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,220
know experiment you know bringing bring

949
00:36:15,710 --> 00:36:13,200
forth life and then actually be able to

950
00:36:16,970 --> 00:36:15,720
interact in the Seance with with this

951
00:36:20,810 --> 00:36:16,980
character

952
00:36:23,690 --> 00:36:20,820
yeah it's fascinating and uh my my boys

953
00:36:25,609 --> 00:36:23,700
and and even uh myself I'm a big fan of

954
00:36:27,650 --> 00:36:25,619
Dungeons and Dragons you know so this is

955
00:36:29,630 --> 00:36:27,660
uh you know if you've ever participated

956
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,640
in the Dungeons and Dragons campaign you

957
00:36:33,290 --> 00:36:30,960
know you're creating your own character

958
00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:33,300
they've got a backstory usually they've

959
00:36:38,329 --> 00:36:34,920
and you're interacting with characters

960
00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:38,339
in the story who are also created from

961
00:36:43,010 --> 00:36:40,380
the mind of the dungeon master or even

962
00:36:45,290 --> 00:36:43,020
perhaps from the uh the group that is

963
00:36:47,690 --> 00:36:45,300
that you're participating with and you

964
00:36:50,089 --> 00:36:47,700
know I I went through a campaign not too

965
00:36:52,670 --> 00:36:50,099
long ago with some friends where we had

966
00:36:55,130 --> 00:36:52,680
a like a non-playable character just a

967
00:36:56,990 --> 00:36:55,140
random character in the story it was

968
00:36:59,150 --> 00:36:57,000
like a shopkeeper whatever and he ended

969
00:37:03,109 --> 00:36:59,160
up taking on his a life of his own and

970
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:03,119
becoming one member of our party uh and

971
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:05,280
so he he developed a personality he had

972
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:07,200
all these kind of qualities that that

973
00:37:11,870 --> 00:37:09,680
just formed from our mutual interaction

974
00:37:13,370 --> 00:37:11,880
obviously that that is not the same

975
00:37:16,670 --> 00:37:13,380
thing necessarily that we're talking

976
00:37:17,329 --> 00:37:16,680
about here but it is a it is a proxy to

977
00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:17,339
that

978
00:37:23,569 --> 00:37:20,160
uh it you know it's an illustration of

979
00:37:27,050 --> 00:37:23,579
how wind mines uh you know work

980
00:37:30,349 --> 00:37:27,060
collectively around a particular idea or

981
00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:30,359
notion or character or entity that that

982
00:37:36,410 --> 00:37:33,300
that does kind of give birth to

983
00:37:38,930 --> 00:37:36,420
additional qualities character traits uh

984
00:37:41,569 --> 00:37:38,940
abilities that that did not exist before

985
00:37:43,370 --> 00:37:41,579
and and we could say oh well that's just

986
00:37:44,990 --> 00:37:43,380
because well the human imagination is

987
00:37:47,569 --> 00:37:45,000
really powerful man I mean that's just

988
00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:47,579
what's happening there uh but but I

989
00:37:55,370 --> 00:37:51,780
think we find that it even if that is

990
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:55,380
true that it absolutely has an effect on

991
00:37:59,630 --> 00:37:57,599
what we call the world and reality

992
00:38:02,569 --> 00:37:59,640
around us right that that it it

993
00:38:04,609 --> 00:38:02,579
absolutely does uh change the way we

994
00:38:07,069 --> 00:38:04,619
behave not only in our own personal

995
00:38:09,710 --> 00:38:07,079
lives but interpersonally it changes the

996
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:09,720
way we think uh it changes the way we

997
00:38:14,270 --> 00:38:12,000
interact not just interpersonally but

998
00:38:16,510 --> 00:38:14,280
from like a corporate interaction and a

999
00:38:18,410 --> 00:38:16,520
personal interaction or or

1000
00:38:20,510 --> 00:38:18,420
organizationally how organizations

1001
00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:20,520
interact with one another I mean all of

1002
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:22,920
us who've worked uh out of a corporate

1003
00:38:28,370 --> 00:38:25,440
job understand that there's the there's

1004
00:38:31,790 --> 00:38:28,380
this uh you know corporate Persona that

1005
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:31,800
in a way like is unfazed by whether or

1006
00:38:35,450 --> 00:38:33,839
not like you're there or not so if you

1007
00:38:37,849 --> 00:38:35,460
leave tomorrow well the corporation

1008
00:38:39,650 --> 00:38:37,859
shoulders on and you know it doesn't

1009
00:38:41,210 --> 00:38:39,660
need you necessarily

1010
00:38:43,010 --> 00:38:41,220
um and and it's going to continue

1011
00:38:44,690 --> 00:38:43,020
behaving a certain way that you would

1012
00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:44,700
expect it to behave and if it doesn't

1013
00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:46,920
well then what happens there that causes

1014
00:38:51,230 --> 00:38:49,200
all kinds of Chaos in terms of the show

1015
00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:51,240
shareholders get freaked out and this

1016
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:53,520
isn't the company I invested in and you

1017
00:38:59,089 --> 00:38:55,260
know it creates all this sort of chaos

1018
00:39:00,890 --> 00:38:59,099
around it so uh all all examples of

1019
00:39:02,750 --> 00:39:00,900
things that I think we can point to to

1020
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:02,760
say that this is a very real phenomena

1021
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:05,280
that happens and uh and it's very

1022
00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:07,680
powerful but but it's so part of our

1023
00:39:10,910 --> 00:39:09,780
everyday life that it that to us it's

1024
00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:10,920
not something we really spend a lot of

1025
00:39:15,410 --> 00:39:12,240
time thinking about

1026
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:15,420
and seems very subtle but in fact is is

1027
00:39:19,730 --> 00:39:17,280
quite dynamic

1028
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:19,740
indeed I mean I think

1029
00:39:24,349 --> 00:39:22,320
people often hear these Notions and as

1030
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:24,359
you're just pointing to there they tend

1031
00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:26,160
to think about these far out kind of

1032
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:27,599
occultist Notions and whatnot and

1033
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:30,420
theosophical kind of experiments

1034
00:39:33,470 --> 00:39:32,160
but just to clarify in this kind of

1035
00:39:36,050 --> 00:39:33,480
experiment we just described with the

1036
00:39:37,790 --> 00:39:36,060
Philip experiment in Toronto they they

1037
00:39:39,470 --> 00:39:37,800
really were trying to measure this the

1038
00:39:41,390 --> 00:39:39,480
way that they could demonstrate that

1039
00:39:43,849 --> 00:39:41,400
this was manifesting and what again we

1040
00:39:45,950 --> 00:39:43,859
perceive as physical reality which

1041
00:39:47,329 --> 00:39:45,960
almost anyone again brought up in a

1042
00:39:49,490 --> 00:39:47,339
physicalist kind of culture is going to

1043
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:49,500
say well that is that is demonstrably

1044
00:39:53,630 --> 00:39:51,359
significant right because this is

1045
00:39:55,370 --> 00:39:53,640
clearly not just hallucination or even

1046
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:55,380
Mass hallucination because if you could

1047
00:39:58,730 --> 00:39:57,599
record these things happening so that

1048
00:40:00,349 --> 00:39:58,740
someone not even involved with the

1049
00:40:02,510 --> 00:40:00,359
experiment can after the facts see it

1050
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:02,520
and listen to it and hear it and see

1051
00:40:07,609 --> 00:40:04,560
these physical manifestations then

1052
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:07,619
somehow it is actually interacting now

1053
00:40:10,630 --> 00:40:09,119
what's interesting of course is this

1054
00:40:12,589 --> 00:40:10,640
should not surprise us because

1055
00:40:14,510 --> 00:40:12,599
everything we've been seeing on this

1056
00:40:17,329 --> 00:40:14,520
podcast about Consciousness being

1057
00:40:20,990 --> 00:40:17,339
primary suggests that physical reality

1058
00:40:24,650 --> 00:40:21,000
again as we perceive it is a derivative

1059
00:40:26,450 --> 00:40:24,660
of movements in Consciousness right so

1060
00:40:27,890 --> 00:40:26,460
that being the case we should see things

1061
00:40:29,930 --> 00:40:27,900
like this and so I would suggest these

1062
00:40:32,329 --> 00:40:29,940
kinds of experiments are actually

1063
00:40:33,890 --> 00:40:32,339
further Evidence pointing in this

1064
00:40:35,630 --> 00:40:33,900
direction this kind of idealistic kind

1065
00:40:37,550 --> 00:40:35,640
of perspective on reality

1066
00:40:40,190 --> 00:40:37,560
and there's other ones like this you

1067
00:40:42,109 --> 00:40:40,200
know where sometimes they they've uh

1068
00:40:44,089 --> 00:40:42,119
found these kind of poltergeist

1069
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:44,099
phenomena right so we can talk about

1070
00:40:46,910 --> 00:40:45,359
this for a little bit because not only

1071
00:40:48,770 --> 00:40:46,920
has Poltergeist phenomena been

1072
00:40:50,450 --> 00:40:48,780
associated with the UFO phenomenon and

1073
00:40:52,010 --> 00:40:50,460
general paranormality

1074
00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:52,020
but on top of that there's been times

1075
00:40:55,310 --> 00:40:53,280
where

1076
00:40:56,950 --> 00:40:55,320
even apart from that there's been cases

1077
00:40:59,930 --> 00:40:56,960
where different

1078
00:41:03,050 --> 00:40:59,940
ontologists h-a-u-n-t will go and

1079
00:41:04,730 --> 00:41:03,060
actually work with people who have had

1080
00:41:06,890 --> 00:41:04,740
situations where where Poltergeist

1081
00:41:09,410 --> 00:41:06,900
phenomena have been arising in a home

1082
00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:09,420
and very often they find this this

1083
00:41:15,829 --> 00:41:13,020
relates back to a teenage girl because

1084
00:41:18,770 --> 00:41:15,839
there's something about that alchemical

1085
00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:18,780
process of when a girl is moving towards

1086
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:22,200
a woman and all of the chaotic uh

1087
00:41:26,089 --> 00:41:23,640
energies that are involved in that

1088
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:26,099
process are so intense that it can

1089
00:41:33,230 --> 00:41:29,280
actually sort of boil over that that uh

1090
00:41:36,290 --> 00:41:33,240
barrier right and actually manifest in

1091
00:41:38,930 --> 00:41:36,300
physical reality so very often you know

1092
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:38,940
once they age out of that process the

1093
00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:41,520
phenomena dissipates right very very

1094
00:41:44,270 --> 00:41:42,540
interesting

1095
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:44,280
and in the same way

1096
00:41:48,770 --> 00:41:46,640
these others some of them that seem to

1097
00:41:50,690 --> 00:41:48,780
intersect with our reality like a

1098
00:41:52,370 --> 00:41:50,700
parallel reality that intersects with

1099
00:41:55,550 --> 00:41:52,380
our own

1100
00:41:57,829 --> 00:41:55,560
um produces after the fact Poltergeist

1101
00:41:58,970 --> 00:41:57,839
phenomena right so some people go why is

1102
00:42:00,710 --> 00:41:58,980
that like what is that what do

1103
00:42:03,109 --> 00:42:00,720
Poltergeist have to do with like a UFO

1104
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:03,119
but it's the same kind of notion perhaps

1105
00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:06,000
where there's so much energy poured into

1106
00:42:13,069 --> 00:42:10,880
a situation that the excess can produce

1107
00:42:15,470 --> 00:42:13,079
byproducts and what we perceive as

1108
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:15,480
space-time you know days weeks months

1109
00:42:19,430 --> 00:42:17,760
later we think about Skinwalker Ranch

1110
00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:19,440
right now how people have this boil over

1111
00:42:23,930 --> 00:42:22,200
effect with hitchhiker phenomena where

1112
00:42:26,089 --> 00:42:23,940
people just socially connected to

1113
00:42:28,849 --> 00:42:26,099
someone can have some of this boil over

1114
00:42:31,130 --> 00:42:28,859
which again speaks to the fact that the

1115
00:42:33,950 --> 00:42:31,140
traffic happens on a Consciousness level

1116
00:42:35,810 --> 00:42:33,960
not in the physical construct right in

1117
00:42:39,230 --> 00:42:35,820
which again I think points towards this

1118
00:42:41,390 --> 00:42:39,240
notion that the physical construct is a

1119
00:42:43,849 --> 00:42:41,400
byproduct a derivative aspect of some

1120
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,859
deeper movement in Consciousness and I

1121
00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:45,359
think where we sometimes go wrong in

1122
00:42:50,450 --> 00:42:47,160
trying to understand the UFO phenomenon

1123
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:50,460
is we assume physical reality is a thing

1124
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:53,280
right we assume this is like well proven

1125
00:42:57,290 --> 00:42:55,440
no demonstrable of that that we don't

1126
00:42:58,550 --> 00:42:57,300
have to question so how is it that

1127
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,560
they're manipulating our physical

1128
00:43:03,530 --> 00:43:00,480
reality which we know is a thing and

1129
00:43:05,870 --> 00:43:03,540
solid and trustworthy that that confuses

1130
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:05,880
us but what I think we see evidence of

1131
00:43:10,250 --> 00:43:07,680
is that they are working in the

1132
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:10,260
substrate below physical construct or

1133
00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:12,000
what you know is overarchingly

1134
00:43:16,849 --> 00:43:14,160
surrounding that construct and they do

1135
00:43:18,890 --> 00:43:16,859
it directly from that deeper structure

1136
00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:18,900
through which we only ever see the

1137
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:21,119
byproduct of what that looks like in

1138
00:43:25,490 --> 00:43:23,280
this derivative aspect of space-time and

1139
00:43:26,990 --> 00:43:25,500
until we begin to think about it in

1140
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:27,000
those terms I think we're going to

1141
00:43:31,490 --> 00:43:28,319
really wrestle with trying to understand

1142
00:43:33,470 --> 00:43:31,500
what's going on and as I pointed out on

1143
00:43:35,270 --> 00:43:33,480
previous episodes on this podcast I

1144
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:35,280
spoke about this in New York

1145
00:43:39,410 --> 00:43:36,960
what's interesting is there are other

1146
00:43:41,569 --> 00:43:39,420
studies being done in in parallel kind

1147
00:43:44,030 --> 00:43:41,579
of fields of inquiry right neuroscience

1148
00:43:45,650 --> 00:43:44,040
and quantum physics that are pointing in

1149
00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:45,660
the same direction this notion that

1150
00:43:49,250 --> 00:43:48,240
space-time cannot be fundamental there

1151
00:43:51,050 --> 00:43:49,260
must be

1152
00:43:52,970 --> 00:43:51,060
a deeper structure because basically

1153
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:52,980
space time is is telling on itself

1154
00:43:57,470 --> 00:43:55,200
there's evidence arising in the data

1155
00:44:00,829 --> 00:43:57,480
saying this can not be fundamental it

1156
00:44:02,809 --> 00:44:00,839
looks more like a derivative product of

1157
00:44:04,309 --> 00:44:02,819
something deeper and we've already begun

1158
00:44:06,829 --> 00:44:04,319
to you know I've talked about people

1159
00:44:08,990 --> 00:44:06,839
like Nema arkani Hamed these physicists

1160
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:09,000
are basically now coming up with

1161
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:10,800
mathematical conceptions of what this

1162
00:44:14,930 --> 00:44:12,359
deeper structure might look like which

1163
00:44:17,210 --> 00:44:14,940
is very interesting because sometimes in

1164
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:17,220
our science we can conceive of these

1165
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:18,720
things mathematically before we can

1166
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:20,640
necessarily demonstrate them sometimes

1167
00:44:25,370 --> 00:44:22,560
like Einstein right we'll come up with

1168
00:44:27,650 --> 00:44:25,380
the notion mathematically and then sure

1169
00:44:29,630 --> 00:44:27,660
enough 30 40 years later we actually are

1170
00:44:31,790 --> 00:44:29,640
finally able to show evidence right

1171
00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:31,800
empirical evidence saying that was true

1172
00:44:35,290 --> 00:44:33,780
well we're now at that point with

1173
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:35,300
space-time where we recognize

1174
00:44:39,349 --> 00:44:37,200
mathematically there must be something

1175
00:44:41,930 --> 00:44:39,359
deeper and that's why we're really on

1176
00:44:45,290 --> 00:44:41,940
the frontier of a new science where

1177
00:44:47,390 --> 00:44:45,300
we can begin to reckon with what the UFO

1178
00:44:49,970 --> 00:44:47,400
phenomenon is what Poltergeist phenomena

1179
00:44:53,150 --> 00:44:49,980
are what is this tulpa kind of notion

1180
00:44:54,589 --> 00:44:53,160
right or an evergor which is when um you

1181
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:54,599
know numerous people get together to

1182
00:44:58,130 --> 00:44:56,640
produce something so in some ways the

1183
00:45:00,230 --> 00:44:58,140
Toronto experiment was more of an

1184
00:45:01,930 --> 00:45:00,240
evergore than at the natalpa but in

1185
00:45:04,430 --> 00:45:01,940
either way we're talking about

1186
00:45:06,230 --> 00:45:04,440
Consciousness joining together to

1187
00:45:09,470 --> 00:45:06,240
basically make something out of nothing

1188
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:09,480
that takes on a life that's all and you

1189
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:12,480
hear sort of classically there two ways

1190
00:45:17,690 --> 00:45:15,119
of looking at the phenomena and I want

1191
00:45:20,809 --> 00:45:17,700
to tease to tease these out a little bit

1192
00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:20,819
here so one is that when you hit that uh

1193
00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:22,140
you know place where you're like well

1194
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:24,000
how are they doing this and there's a

1195
00:45:27,950 --> 00:45:25,440
lot of people that go it's a technology

1196
00:45:30,290 --> 00:45:27,960
you know they have a technology that we

1197
00:45:33,050 --> 00:45:30,300
just don't have and uh they're using

1198
00:45:34,130 --> 00:45:33,060
some fancy Gizmo to change the way that

1199
00:45:35,569 --> 00:45:34,140
we look you know that we perceive

1200
00:45:37,970 --> 00:45:35,579
reality whatever

1201
00:45:40,670 --> 00:45:37,980
um and that that's a very uh physicalist

1202
00:45:42,829 --> 00:45:40,680
materialist way of looking at how it

1203
00:45:44,690 --> 00:45:42,839
would work and then there's this other

1204
00:45:46,970 --> 00:45:44,700
way of looking at it that you've been

1205
00:45:50,150 --> 00:45:46,980
talking about where Consciousness is is

1206
00:45:52,970 --> 00:45:50,160
it is the fundamental component and I

1207
00:45:54,290 --> 00:45:52,980
wonder how in your own life I think we

1208
00:45:56,870 --> 00:45:54,300
could talk about this quite quite a bit

1209
00:45:58,670 --> 00:45:56,880
but I want to touch on this not both on

1210
00:46:00,370 --> 00:45:58,680
an individual level but at a collective

1211
00:46:04,130 --> 00:46:00,380
level as well

1212
00:46:07,010 --> 00:46:04,140
how shifting your perspective to I to

1213
00:46:09,770 --> 00:46:07,020
the idealist Viewpoint to Consciousness

1214
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:09,780
being at this root level how that does

1215
00:46:14,030 --> 00:46:12,480
in fact change the way that you look at

1216
00:46:16,609 --> 00:46:14,040
interactions that you have with other

1217
00:46:19,390 --> 00:46:16,619
people it changes the way that you that

1218
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:19,400
you relate to information and knowledge

1219
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:23,400
uh it really it colors every facet of

1220
00:46:28,069 --> 00:46:26,160
your lived experience uh you know I I

1221
00:46:30,290 --> 00:46:28,079
kind of from my own personal experience

1222
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:30,300
gonna test that looking at the world in

1223
00:46:35,329 --> 00:46:33,359
this way it changes the way that you

1224
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:35,339
interact with people that you're close

1225
00:46:40,130 --> 00:46:37,440
to it changes the way that you look at

1226
00:46:43,010 --> 00:46:40,140
information uh that that you've learned

1227
00:46:46,609 --> 00:46:43,020
things you're tapping into a different

1228
00:46:48,890 --> 00:46:46,619
conception of reality than just the sort

1229
00:46:50,510 --> 00:46:48,900
of textbook you know I literally pick up

1230
00:46:51,770 --> 00:46:50,520
a textbook and I'm learning a fact or

1231
00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:51,780
reading something on the Internet and

1232
00:46:56,329 --> 00:46:54,240
I'm absorbing it that way or I'm testing

1233
00:46:58,609 --> 00:46:56,339
it in the lab and therefore it is real

1234
00:47:01,609 --> 00:46:58,619
uh it's not that you can't continue to

1235
00:47:05,530 --> 00:47:01,619
do those things but you kind of feel

1236
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:05,540
into a deeper layer of of connectedness

1237
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:08,400
and even just as recently as a few days

1238
00:47:13,130 --> 00:47:10,560
ago I had one of these moments with you

1239
00:47:15,050 --> 00:47:13,140
know somebody on on Twitter where uh you

1240
00:47:16,670 --> 00:47:15,060
know I just kind of reached out to this

1241
00:47:19,490 --> 00:47:16,680
person and shared an experience that I

1242
00:47:22,670 --> 00:47:19,500
had and and it kind of led to like a

1243
00:47:25,010 --> 00:47:22,680
Cascade of synchronicity uh just in a

1244
00:47:27,770 --> 00:47:25,020
matter of a few minutes of this of this

1245
00:47:29,210 --> 00:47:27,780
exchange I don't know this person they

1246
00:47:31,490 --> 00:47:29,220
don't know me you know we have no like

1247
00:47:34,609 --> 00:47:31,500
shared history but this one sort of

1248
00:47:36,770 --> 00:47:34,619
Connecting Point basically

1249
00:47:38,150 --> 00:47:36,780
like like a flower kind of bloomed into

1250
00:47:40,849 --> 00:47:38,160
these into these all these other

1251
00:47:43,069 --> 00:47:40,859
connecting points and you know I would

1252
00:47:46,010 --> 00:47:43,079
argue that that's probably true for

1253
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:46,020
everything because everything is

1254
00:47:51,470 --> 00:47:48,000
connected in that way it's very

1255
00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:51,480
fractively connected and so it's it's

1256
00:47:55,849 --> 00:47:53,280
almost like um

1257
00:47:57,890 --> 00:47:55,859
like a spider web right if you CL if you

1258
00:48:00,109 --> 00:47:57,900
pluck one of the the little you know

1259
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:00,119
threads on that web well it activates

1260
00:48:05,150 --> 00:48:03,119
the entire thing it's all very very much

1261
00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:05,160
connected yet that one sort of section

1262
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:07,680
of the web is you know fractally

1263
00:48:13,069 --> 00:48:10,140
representative of the the of the whole

1264
00:48:16,550 --> 00:48:13,079
you know so it there would be this kind

1265
00:48:19,069 --> 00:48:16,560
of uh similarity or uh repeating sort of

1266
00:48:21,230 --> 00:48:19,079
knowledge at work there that would

1267
00:48:23,750 --> 00:48:21,240
present itself to us as these sort of

1268
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:23,760
synchronous synchronicities or you know

1269
00:48:28,910 --> 00:48:26,160
powerful insights because we have access

1270
00:48:30,890 --> 00:48:28,920
to it at that at that little level and

1271
00:48:33,470 --> 00:48:30,900
and then we can kind of unfold it to the

1272
00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:33,480
larger level as well

1273
00:48:38,270 --> 00:48:36,180
yeah I think it's fascinating because if

1274
00:48:40,010 --> 00:48:38,280
you think about it to use an analogy

1275
00:48:41,210 --> 00:48:40,020
imagine you kind of have like a this is

1276
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:41,220
kind of a crude analogy but this

1277
00:48:44,510 --> 00:48:42,240
occurred to me as you were talking

1278
00:48:46,309 --> 00:48:44,520
imagine you have a paint gun and the

1279
00:48:48,589 --> 00:48:46,319
paint gun is indicative of this deeper

1280
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:48,599
structure and you fire you know some

1281
00:48:53,210 --> 00:48:50,880
paint out of this paint gun and imagine

1282
00:48:55,250 --> 00:48:53,220
like this sort of a splash of paint kind

1283
00:48:57,589 --> 00:48:55,260
of coming out of this of this gun right

1284
00:49:00,349 --> 00:48:57,599
this mechanism and it flies across the

1285
00:49:03,410 --> 00:49:00,359
room and as and on the other side of the

1286
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:03,420
room you have kind of this um this long

1287
00:49:06,910 --> 00:49:05,520
sheet of paper that's being fed through

1288
00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:06,920
a mechanism that's running it

1289
00:49:10,849 --> 00:49:09,119
horizontally right so it's running from

1290
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:10,859
one side of the room together and so the

1291
00:49:15,170 --> 00:49:13,680
paint's going to Splash on the paper but

1292
00:49:16,849 --> 00:49:15,180
it's going to land at different points

1293
00:49:19,010 --> 00:49:16,859
of the paper because the paper is also

1294
00:49:21,290 --> 00:49:19,020
kind of running laterally right as the

1295
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:21,300
paint is coming my my painting the

1296
00:49:26,990 --> 00:49:23,760
picture adequately yeah I like it I want

1297
00:49:30,589 --> 00:49:27,000
to do this now experiment but but then

1298
00:49:32,210 --> 00:49:30,599
think about space time as as the our

1299
00:49:34,430 --> 00:49:32,220
experience of the paper right so we look

1300
00:49:36,770 --> 00:49:34,440
at the paper we go wow look at these

1301
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:36,780
synchronicities like it's splashed here

1302
00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:38,400
and then three seconds later it's here

1303
00:49:42,530 --> 00:49:39,839
and then five seconds later it's here

1304
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,540
but actually it's this interaction of

1305
00:49:47,809 --> 00:49:44,640
this deeper process and we're kind of

1306
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:47,819
blind to the elements that that produce

1307
00:49:52,609 --> 00:49:50,880
the final result and we we assume that

1308
00:49:54,770 --> 00:49:52,619
the paper is all there is and so we

1309
00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:54,780
assume it must be something there and so

1310
00:49:59,690 --> 00:49:57,060
we see things that look like

1311
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:59,700
anomalous right they we talk about these

1312
00:50:03,170 --> 00:50:01,440
like synchronicities being meaningful

1313
00:50:04,970 --> 00:50:03,180
coincidences and you and I talked about

1314
00:50:07,250 --> 00:50:04,980
before went on the air that even

1315
00:50:09,170 --> 00:50:07,260
sometimes if someone who's really baked

1316
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:09,180
into the physicalist mindset and bought

1317
00:50:14,530 --> 00:50:12,480
into that propaganda the 100 even when

1318
00:50:16,730 --> 00:50:14,540
you describe the most bizarre

1319
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:16,740
orchestration of synchronicities they'll

1320
00:50:20,750 --> 00:50:18,720
say wow yeah that's a weird coincidences

1321
00:50:22,550 --> 00:50:20,760
man well I guess in an infinite Universe

1322
00:50:24,170 --> 00:50:22,560
anything can happen right so let's

1323
00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:24,180
understand that kind of thing right not

1324
00:50:27,710 --> 00:50:25,920
realizing how Preposterous that sounds

1325
00:50:30,290 --> 00:50:27,720
like that's far less likely than

1326
00:50:32,750 --> 00:50:30,300
something spookier than that is going on

1327
00:50:34,490 --> 00:50:32,760
right and so it just shows you how

1328
00:50:36,230 --> 00:50:34,500
again these things take on a life of

1329
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:36,240
their own and people almost are not even

1330
00:50:40,609 --> 00:50:38,640
able able to objectively really look

1331
00:50:42,650 --> 00:50:40,619
honestly at what's happening

1332
00:50:44,089 --> 00:50:42,660
but this is what I find fascinating

1333
00:50:45,710 --> 00:50:44,099
because when I look at my own life over

1334
00:50:47,450 --> 00:50:45,720
the last three months much of which

1335
00:50:50,569 --> 00:50:47,460
you've been privy to

1336
00:50:53,329 --> 00:50:50,579
there's been just this software level of

1337
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:53,339
uh synchronistic orchestration where I

1338
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:54,720
almost feel like

1339
00:50:59,450 --> 00:50:57,839
I'm standing still and reality is moving

1340
00:51:00,710 --> 00:50:59,460
around me right so it's not that I'm

1341
00:51:02,930 --> 00:51:00,720
moving in the world and things are

1342
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:02,940
happening but I feel more like as I step

1343
00:51:07,010 --> 00:51:05,520
into a flow and participate with this

1344
00:51:08,990 --> 00:51:07,020
sense of what I'm supposed to be doing

1345
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:09,000
then shoveling the world is moving

1346
00:51:13,609 --> 00:51:10,559
around me is kind of what it feels like

1347
00:51:16,010 --> 00:51:13,619
and then we can after the fact interpret

1348
00:51:17,870 --> 00:51:16,020
it as this series of synchronicities but

1349
00:51:20,030 --> 00:51:17,880
it's really about this deeper structure

1350
00:51:21,950 --> 00:51:20,040
and then looking at the byproduct that's

1351
00:51:23,690 --> 00:51:21,960
created the same way that you can look

1352
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:23,700
at this long sheet of paper and trying

1353
00:51:29,150 --> 00:51:26,160
to make sense of these these paint dots

1354
00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:29,160
on it as a pattern not recognizing that

1355
00:51:32,809 --> 00:51:30,720
the interactive process that was

1356
00:51:35,870 --> 00:51:32,819
involved there so

1357
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:35,880
this I think again is all pointing to us

1358
00:51:41,150 --> 00:51:38,160
being in this really Virgin Territory

1359
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:41,160
where we're seeing all this evidence

1360
00:51:45,410 --> 00:51:43,200
right pointing in this direction not

1361
00:51:47,150 --> 00:51:45,420
only from the UFO phenomenon not just

1362
00:51:48,829 --> 00:51:47,160
from Poltergeist phenomena or general

1363
00:51:51,170 --> 00:51:48,839
paranormality

1364
00:51:52,430 --> 00:51:51,180
not just from tulpas and evergoris that

1365
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,440
we talked about from the Toronto

1366
00:51:56,270 --> 00:51:54,480
experiment and things like that but also

1367
00:51:58,490 --> 00:51:56,280
in near-death experiences right in out

1368
00:52:00,349 --> 00:51:58,500
of body experiences where people

1369
00:52:01,490 --> 00:52:00,359
well you know there's this one woman I'm

1370
00:52:02,809 --> 00:52:01,500
forgetting her name at the top of my

1371
00:52:04,430 --> 00:52:02,819
head but she's going to be part of the

1372
00:52:05,089 --> 00:52:04,440
the next anomalous conference in New

1373
00:52:07,130 --> 00:52:05,099
York

1374
00:52:08,089 --> 00:52:07,140
uh she wrote a book called changed in a

1375
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:08,099
Flash

1376
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:10,800
where she was struck by lightning and

1377
00:52:15,710 --> 00:52:12,720
walking into a synagogue in Houston I

1378
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:15,720
think and next thing she knew she was in

1379
00:52:19,010 --> 00:52:17,520
a place that she perceived as kind of

1380
00:52:21,170 --> 00:52:19,020
Heaven talking to this kind of

1381
00:52:23,569 --> 00:52:21,180
grandfatherly kind of figure

1382
00:52:24,890 --> 00:52:23,579
came back was you know was resuscitated

1383
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:24,900
because there was turns out there was

1384
00:52:29,390 --> 00:52:27,359
numerous heart doctors in the synagogue

1385
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:29,400
so they were able to bring her back but

1386
00:52:32,930 --> 00:52:31,200
then once she was back she proceeded to

1387
00:52:34,849 --> 00:52:32,940
have precognitive dreams about the

1388
00:52:35,870 --> 00:52:34,859
future like disasters and whatnot that

1389
00:52:38,030 --> 00:52:35,880
were happening she would dream about

1390
00:52:40,250 --> 00:52:38,040
this this wasn't part of her reality

1391
00:52:42,470 --> 00:52:40,260
beforehand right so

1392
00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:42,480
this is so fascinating because again not

1393
00:52:45,650 --> 00:52:44,400
only does that violate our understanding

1394
00:52:46,970 --> 00:52:45,660
of space-time we're not supposed to know

1395
00:52:48,829 --> 00:52:46,980
things ahead of time right that's not

1396
00:52:50,510 --> 00:52:48,839
supposed to be possible and the fact

1397
00:52:52,190 --> 00:52:50,520
that just alone the fact that it just

1398
00:52:54,170 --> 00:52:52,200
does happen to her and to many people

1399
00:52:56,270 --> 00:52:54,180
and it's demonstrable in the evidence in

1400
00:52:57,890 --> 00:52:56,280
the data is already telling us that

1401
00:53:01,569 --> 00:52:57,900
space time can't be what we think it is

1402
00:53:04,609 --> 00:53:01,579
it must be more like a a secondary

1403
00:53:06,170 --> 00:53:04,619
byproduct of something deeper but what

1404
00:53:07,549 --> 00:53:06,180
was it about her experience in a

1405
00:53:10,190 --> 00:53:07,559
near-death experience that somehow

1406
00:53:11,630 --> 00:53:10,200
opened up her capacity to have these

1407
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:11,640
kind of precognitive dreams right

1408
00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:13,680
because as we talked about before with

1409
00:53:18,410 --> 00:53:16,319
with the free survey that was done a few

1410
00:53:20,569 --> 00:53:18,420
years ago in any of these contact

1411
00:53:22,370 --> 00:53:20,579
modalities if you've experienced one

1412
00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:22,380
you're much more likely to experience

1413
00:53:26,210 --> 00:53:24,000
the others after that because it's

1414
00:53:28,190 --> 00:53:26,220
almost like a a switch gets flipped

1415
00:53:30,530 --> 00:53:28,200
right and and we've talked before about

1416
00:53:33,770 --> 00:53:30,540
again Donald Hoffman's work around

1417
00:53:36,049 --> 00:53:33,780
really our usual default mode experience

1418
00:53:38,750 --> 00:53:36,059
of reality in our waking state is kind

1419
00:53:41,569 --> 00:53:38,760
of this derivative process that's more

1420
00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:41,579
like icons in a desktop right so I'm not

1421
00:53:45,049 --> 00:53:43,020
seeing Nathan as he really is I'm seeing

1422
00:53:47,690 --> 00:53:45,059
an icon that Evolution has served up to

1423
00:53:49,790 --> 00:53:47,700
me so I can move to the world and stay

1424
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:49,800
alive basically enough to like propagate

1425
00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:51,839
the species and that's it right which

1426
00:53:56,690 --> 00:53:54,000
means all sorts of reality is being

1427
00:53:58,609 --> 00:53:56,700
blocked out filtered out and what some

1428
00:54:01,130 --> 00:53:58,619
of these experiences allow us to do is

1429
00:54:02,990 --> 00:54:01,140
to break outside of that whether it's

1430
00:54:05,150 --> 00:54:03,000
something like a psychedelic Journey or

1431
00:54:06,890 --> 00:54:05,160
something like contact with non-human

1432
00:54:09,890 --> 00:54:06,900
intelligence or a near-death experience

1433
00:54:12,650 --> 00:54:09,900
right all of these things can can

1434
00:54:14,150 --> 00:54:12,660
somehow open up the aperture and

1435
00:54:17,329 --> 00:54:14,160
suddenly we're experiencing not just

1436
00:54:20,569 --> 00:54:17,339
more reality but we seem to have more of

1437
00:54:22,670 --> 00:54:20,579
an interaction now with the substructure

1438
00:54:24,170 --> 00:54:22,680
which produces physical reality that's

1439
00:54:25,849 --> 00:54:24,180
what I think this is pointing to and I

1440
00:54:27,230 --> 00:54:25,859
think it's just fascating

1441
00:54:31,250 --> 00:54:27,240
um

1442
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:31,260
reality sure we all do uh that then

1443
00:54:38,930 --> 00:54:34,319
leads to uh I think the next sort of

1444
00:54:41,569 --> 00:54:38,940
area of of conversation uh which is

1445
00:54:44,990 --> 00:54:41,579
the practical application of this way of

1446
00:54:48,530 --> 00:54:45,000
thinking uh both for the individual and

1447
00:54:50,589 --> 00:54:48,540
communities right so uh if we were to

1448
00:54:53,450 --> 00:54:50,599
begin

1449
00:54:54,490 --> 00:54:53,460
implementing this way of thinking in a

1450
00:54:57,790 --> 00:54:54,500
community

1451
00:55:00,849 --> 00:54:57,800
or if the world even adopted this

1452
00:55:02,410 --> 00:55:00,859
metaphysical perspective how does that

1453
00:55:07,250 --> 00:55:02,420
change

1454
00:55:11,089 --> 00:55:07,260
the entire equation and uh I'm sure just

1455
00:55:13,910 --> 00:55:11,099
like anything it brings some positive

1456
00:55:15,770 --> 00:55:13,920
changes and also some very you know sort

1457
00:55:18,770 --> 00:55:15,780
of destabilizing changes it's not like

1458
00:55:20,329 --> 00:55:18,780
it's going to be all Shangri-La uh but I

1459
00:55:21,710 --> 00:55:20,339
think it might be good to to talk

1460
00:55:23,870 --> 00:55:21,720
through you know some of the

1461
00:55:25,609 --> 00:55:23,880
implications here of this way of

1462
00:55:28,670 --> 00:55:25,619
thinking and also address some of the

1463
00:55:31,970 --> 00:55:28,680
critiques that you often hear from

1464
00:55:33,410 --> 00:55:31,980
Outsiders who might look into certain

1465
00:55:35,210 --> 00:55:33,420
groups within the community who have

1466
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:35,220
tried to practice this or put it in into

1467
00:55:40,910 --> 00:55:37,680
practice uh here I'm thinking of like

1468
00:55:42,770 --> 00:55:40,920
Heist groups or C5 groups or maybe

1469
00:55:44,690 --> 00:55:42,780
Mission Rama in a good example with that

1470
00:55:46,670 --> 00:55:44,700
with the heist you know people who look

1471
00:55:49,010 --> 00:55:46,680
at that from the outside and say well it

1472
00:55:50,990 --> 00:55:49,020
looks kind of you know kooky and culty

1473
00:55:53,329 --> 00:55:51,000
to me it looks very you know religious

1474
00:55:55,069 --> 00:55:53,339
and anything that looks like religion

1475
00:55:58,250 --> 00:55:55,079
well that's not that's not what we do

1476
00:55:59,690 --> 00:55:58,260
anymore in modernity so uh I'm gonna I'm

1477
00:56:01,250 --> 00:55:59,700
gonna run away from that I'm gonna make

1478
00:56:03,950 --> 00:56:01,260
sure everybody knows not to go close to

1479
00:56:06,410 --> 00:56:03,960
it because it's just very dangerous so I

1480
00:56:07,970 --> 00:56:06,420
wonder what you think about that and is

1481
00:56:10,609 --> 00:56:07,980
there a way we can

1482
00:56:13,390 --> 00:56:10,619
put this into practice and avoid some of

1483
00:56:16,970 --> 00:56:13,400
the pitfalls that maybe

1484
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:16,980
that kind of religiosity has fallen prey

1485
00:56:24,470 --> 00:56:21,290
yeah it's fascinating when you think

1486
00:56:28,250 --> 00:56:24,480
about C5 or Heist human issue human

1487
00:56:31,609 --> 00:56:28,260
initiated contact events as a

1488
00:56:34,130 --> 00:56:31,619
you know is what it stands for

1489
00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:34,140
because as people like Joplin have

1490
00:56:38,089 --> 00:56:35,819
talked about it is very much like a new

1491
00:56:41,210 --> 00:56:38,099
religion in some ways right now

1492
00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:41,220
as our friend James iandoli often has to

1493
00:56:44,450 --> 00:56:42,960
deal with is people who say say that

1494
00:56:47,210 --> 00:56:44,460
we're basically summoning something

1495
00:56:50,270 --> 00:56:47,220
right and so he'll make the point that

1496
00:56:51,650 --> 00:56:50,280
and many uh practitioners of C5 and high

1497
00:56:54,049 --> 00:56:51,660
school point out that it's more of an

1498
00:56:55,609 --> 00:56:54,059
interactive participatory kind of

1499
00:56:58,010 --> 00:56:55,619
communication or relationship right

1500
00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:58,020
rather than a summoning but some people

1501
00:57:02,089 --> 00:56:59,760
who again are more coming from a

1502
00:57:03,890 --> 00:57:02,099
cultivate or religious background will

1503
00:57:05,690 --> 00:57:03,900
say sure looks like summoning to me

1504
00:57:07,490 --> 00:57:05,700
right and there's even this group of

1505
00:57:09,470 --> 00:57:07,500
guys in Southern California called

1506
00:57:11,390 --> 00:57:09,480
literally called the orb Summoners right

1507
00:57:13,970 --> 00:57:11,400
right and they've actually been able to

1508
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:13,980
to do this right I remember them being

1509
00:57:19,490 --> 00:57:17,280
interviewed by by George Knapp and they

1510
00:57:22,910 --> 00:57:19,500
talked about this is a fascinating case

1511
00:57:25,010 --> 00:57:22,920
of how practice is paired with

1512
00:57:27,410 --> 00:57:25,020
experience right because they they sense

1513
00:57:29,690 --> 00:57:27,420
that part of the the magic formula if

1514
00:57:33,410 --> 00:57:29,700
you will was that they had a really

1515
00:57:36,829 --> 00:57:33,420
positive attitude of gratitude towards

1516
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:36,839
life and the the fundamental forces

1517
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:39,599
behind life and even these others that

1518
00:57:43,010 --> 00:57:41,520
they were reaching out to so as you're

1519
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:43,020
listening to them being interviewed by

1520
00:57:45,170 --> 00:57:44,160
George now it's quite interesting

1521
00:57:47,210 --> 00:57:45,180
because

1522
00:57:48,770 --> 00:57:47,220
you see them practicing these protocols

1523
00:57:51,049 --> 00:57:48,780
in real time right George will be like

1524
00:57:52,309 --> 00:57:51,059
asking a question so why is it that such

1525
00:57:54,290 --> 00:57:52,319
and such and such and such and they'll

1526
00:57:55,970 --> 00:57:54,300
say well first of all I want to thank

1527
00:57:57,829 --> 00:57:55,980
you so much George for that excellent

1528
00:57:58,910 --> 00:57:57,839
question I appreciate the spirit that

1529
00:58:00,770 --> 00:57:58,920
you're bringing to this this

1530
00:58:02,569 --> 00:58:00,780
conversation and I appreciate what

1531
00:58:04,250 --> 00:58:02,579
you've done and who you are on top of

1532
00:58:05,630 --> 00:58:04,260
that like you really are a pillar of

1533
00:58:07,250 --> 00:58:05,640
this community and we want to thank you

1534
00:58:08,930 --> 00:58:07,260
for that we have so much gratitude for

1535
00:58:11,089 --> 00:58:08,940
you and then they go and answer the

1536
00:58:12,650 --> 00:58:11,099
question right but that that is part of

1537
00:58:15,710 --> 00:58:12,660
the protocol right is that they believe

1538
00:58:18,650 --> 00:58:15,720
that by building up that kind of um

1539
00:58:21,710 --> 00:58:18,660
etheric kind of uh energy you're

1540
00:58:23,569 --> 00:58:21,720
actually priming the pump that produces

1541
00:58:25,849 --> 00:58:23,579
the physical phenomena to some degree

1542
00:58:28,430 --> 00:58:25,859
right so so that's a really a

1543
00:58:31,430 --> 00:58:28,440
fascinating aspect of it and

1544
00:58:34,910 --> 00:58:31,440
now I'm I'm completely supportive of of

1545
00:58:37,609 --> 00:58:34,920
C5 and highs because I do believe that

1546
00:58:40,430 --> 00:58:37,619
some of these others uh are very

1547
00:58:42,170 --> 00:58:40,440
benevolent and are willing and ready to

1548
00:58:44,030 --> 00:58:42,180
reach out to us especially when we take

1549
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:44,040
the front foot right I think that some

1550
00:58:49,069 --> 00:58:46,319
of these more benevolent ones really

1551
00:58:51,710 --> 00:58:49,079
honor our Free Will and so they they

1552
00:58:52,910 --> 00:58:51,720
won't intrude in our lives in the same

1553
00:58:55,370 --> 00:58:52,920
way that some of the other groups maybe

1554
00:58:57,589 --> 00:58:55,380
are not quite so benevolent do

1555
00:59:00,770 --> 00:58:57,599
so there is a sense that if you come

1556
00:59:01,970 --> 00:59:00,780
with the right attitude right and you um

1557
00:59:02,870 --> 00:59:01,980
it's funny when you think about it

1558
00:59:04,490 --> 00:59:02,880
because here we're back in kind of

1559
00:59:06,950 --> 00:59:04,500
religious language if you will humble

1560
00:59:08,510 --> 00:59:06,960
yourself before the Lord right right in

1561
00:59:10,130 --> 00:59:08,520
this way it's coming if you will humble

1562
00:59:12,109 --> 00:59:10,140
yourself and in some cases with the

1563
00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:12,119
mission realm and whatnot and become a

1564
00:59:16,250 --> 00:59:14,880
vegetarian and meditate right and come

1565
00:59:17,870 --> 00:59:16,260
together and make sure that everyone you

1566
00:59:20,809 --> 00:59:17,880
invite is at a certain level of

1567
00:59:22,190 --> 00:59:20,819
Consciousness then we will show up and

1568
00:59:24,289 --> 00:59:22,200
if some of those things are not met we

1569
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:24,299
might not show up right now some people

1570
00:59:29,150 --> 00:59:26,160
might say well that's just the the the

1571
00:59:31,130 --> 00:59:29,160
others being finicky right but on the

1572
00:59:33,650 --> 00:59:31,140
other hand you could say maybe no maybe

1573
00:59:37,250 --> 00:59:33,660
this is some sort of dynamic alchemical

1574
00:59:38,270 --> 00:59:37,260
process that happens when you energize a

1575
00:59:40,190 --> 00:59:38,280
process

1576
00:59:42,770 --> 00:59:40,200
then something happens right I think

1577
00:59:45,589 --> 00:59:42,780
again back to my experience at the

1578
00:59:47,870 --> 00:59:45,599
Monroe Institute last year where we came

1579
00:59:50,510 --> 00:59:47,880
together not only trying different SCI

1580
00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:50,520
phenomena telepathy and and remote

1581
00:59:55,010 --> 00:59:52,140
viewing and that kind of thing

1582
00:59:57,829 --> 00:59:55,020
but also you know joining together to

1583
01:00:00,109 --> 00:59:57,839
invite benevolent entities to show up

1584
01:00:02,150 --> 01:00:00,119
and then sure enough we actually had

1585
01:00:04,130 --> 01:00:02,160
experiences and we were able to capture

1586
01:00:07,010 --> 01:00:04,140
on film again in physical consensus

1587
01:00:08,809 --> 01:00:07,020
reality right things in the sky that did

1588
01:00:10,789 --> 01:00:08,819
not seem to be prosaic right and we even

1589
01:00:12,170 --> 01:00:10,799
submitted to mufon and they they

1590
01:00:13,789 --> 01:00:12,180
concluded the same thing that it wasn't

1591
01:00:16,069 --> 01:00:13,799
something per se right it was was

1592
01:00:19,730 --> 01:00:16,079
officially you know designed and

1593
01:00:22,130 --> 01:00:19,740
designated as anomalous right so but

1594
01:00:24,349 --> 01:00:22,140
what's also interesting is that just our

1595
01:00:28,250 --> 01:00:24,359
shared consensus

1596
01:00:30,349 --> 01:00:28,260
um cohesive uh flow together a coherent

1597
01:00:33,289 --> 01:00:30,359
field that we created together also

1598
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:33,299
seemed to be demonstrably impacting the

1599
01:00:36,289 --> 01:00:34,799
random number generator that was on the

1600
01:00:38,870 --> 01:00:36,299
side of the mountain right so again you

1601
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:38,880
have Tom and Tom again you can see this

1602
01:00:44,329 --> 01:00:41,760
evidence where intentional love mental

1603
01:00:46,849 --> 01:00:44,339
intention mentation processes actually

1604
01:00:49,250 --> 01:00:46,859
seem to show up in physical reality

1605
01:00:50,930 --> 01:00:49,260
which I again think points to

1606
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:50,940
again the fundamental nature of

1607
01:00:55,250 --> 01:00:53,040
Consciousness and that we're just at the

1608
01:00:57,049 --> 01:00:55,260
the beginning of understanding this and

1609
01:01:00,349 --> 01:00:57,059
that again with some of these others

1610
01:01:02,569 --> 01:01:00,359
represent is brothers and sisters in the

1611
01:01:04,789 --> 01:01:02,579
cosmic chain who are further along in

1612
01:01:07,130 --> 01:01:04,799
that process and therefore have a much

1613
01:01:10,250 --> 01:01:07,140
more robust ability to interact with

1614
01:01:12,410 --> 01:01:10,260
reality in ways that look to us like

1615
01:01:14,270 --> 01:01:12,420
magic right we're back to that that

1616
01:01:16,130 --> 01:01:14,280
notion that you know a sufficiently

1617
01:01:18,890 --> 01:01:16,140
sophisticated technology is going to

1618
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:18,900
look like magic to a lesser civilization

1619
01:01:23,450 --> 01:01:20,640
but it's more than that I think is

1620
01:01:26,210 --> 01:01:23,460
actually not just external technology

1621
01:01:28,010 --> 01:01:26,220
but it's technology happening internally

1622
01:01:30,349 --> 01:01:28,020
or at the level of Consciousness right

1623
01:01:32,390 --> 01:01:30,359
the Bedrock that precedes the physical

1624
01:01:33,829 --> 01:01:32,400
reality and that's still a kind of

1625
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:33,839
Technology but it's kind of an inner

1626
01:01:38,089 --> 01:01:36,000
science as my I get in my former teacher

1627
01:01:40,190 --> 01:01:38,099
tomasubo would call it right if you

1628
01:01:42,530 --> 01:01:40,200
really tried to develop this really

1629
01:01:44,510 --> 01:01:42,540
robust and well-developed sense of what

1630
01:01:48,230 --> 01:01:44,520
does inner science look like how can we

1631
01:01:49,910 --> 01:01:48,240
turn inward and find as much possibility

1632
01:01:52,970 --> 01:01:49,920
there as we do in looking outward

1633
01:01:56,150 --> 01:01:52,980
towards the Stars hey

1634
01:01:57,109 --> 01:01:56,160
well this uh I'm about to make a

1635
01:01:58,849 --> 01:01:57,119
reference something you've probably

1636
01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:58,859
never heard on little frames before but

1637
01:02:03,170 --> 01:02:00,720
this makes me think about football in a

1638
01:02:06,109 --> 01:02:03,180
whole different perspective right so uh

1639
01:02:07,490 --> 01:02:06,119
think about the the NFL football teams

1640
01:02:10,130 --> 01:02:07,500
you know they're they're gathering in

1641
01:02:11,450 --> 01:02:10,140
the locker room before the game uh if

1642
01:02:12,829 --> 01:02:11,460
you've ever been to a high school

1643
01:02:14,569 --> 01:02:12,839
football game there's a lot of this

1644
01:02:16,430 --> 01:02:14,579
happening too there's this like there's

1645
01:02:18,829 --> 01:02:16,440
a big huddle there's a pep talk there's

1646
01:02:20,150 --> 01:02:18,839
there's a lot of language in sports I'm

1647
01:02:24,589 --> 01:02:20,160
just kind of picking on football here

1648
01:02:26,329 --> 01:02:24,599
but uh that is designed around this you

1649
01:02:28,069 --> 01:02:26,339
know visualization you know that's

1650
01:02:31,010 --> 01:02:28,079
designed around

1651
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:31,020
um thinking as a team visualizing the

1652
01:02:35,569 --> 01:02:32,880
outcome that you want you know we want

1653
01:02:38,450 --> 01:02:35,579
the win uh also there's that gratitude

1654
01:02:41,329 --> 01:02:38,460
at work as well and the way in which at

1655
01:02:43,190 --> 01:02:41,339
least in in U.S uh Sports and football

1656
01:02:46,010 --> 01:02:43,200
in particular I think very often there's

1657
01:02:48,130 --> 01:02:46,020
this uh you know kind of like praying

1658
01:02:50,990 --> 01:02:48,140
after you get the touchdown or you know

1659
01:02:52,430 --> 01:02:51,000
you know thanking God for your amazing

1660
01:02:54,230 --> 01:02:52,440
catch or whatever it's like what does

1661
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,240
God have like money on this game like

1662
01:02:58,309 --> 01:02:56,400
what is going on here uh you know to

1663
01:03:01,190 --> 01:02:58,319
those of us who studied religion it

1664
01:03:04,250 --> 01:03:01,200
always sounds very strange but you know

1665
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:04,260
it is perhaps I'm arguing here like

1666
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:06,480
another kind of manifestation of this

1667
01:03:15,230 --> 01:03:09,599
concept that there is something at work

1668
01:03:18,230 --> 01:03:15,240
here when Minds uh align and kind of

1669
01:03:21,589 --> 01:03:18,240
entrain themselves uh in in a certain

1670
01:03:26,150 --> 01:03:21,599
way that that produces outcomes that

1671
01:03:28,370 --> 01:03:26,160
would not have happened otherwise and

1672
01:03:30,410 --> 01:03:28,380
think about how powerful that that is I

1673
01:03:32,329 --> 01:03:30,420
mean there is you could argue that we do

1674
01:03:33,710 --> 01:03:32,339
it just because it feels good you know

1675
01:03:36,650 --> 01:03:33,720
we're doing these things just because

1676
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:36,660
it's a ritual and it feels good and and

1677
01:03:40,970 --> 01:03:38,640
there's some Superstition to it you know

1678
01:03:43,490 --> 01:03:40,980
I always say this kind of prayer and do

1679
01:03:45,890 --> 01:03:43,500
this kind of thing before I you know

1680
01:03:47,390 --> 01:03:45,900
throw the football or whatever but on

1681
01:03:48,950 --> 01:03:47,400
the other hand you could say that there

1682
01:03:52,910 --> 01:03:48,960
that there's something much more to it

1683
01:03:53,569 --> 01:03:52,920
than that that uh that these are just

1684
01:03:55,849 --> 01:03:53,579
um

1685
01:03:58,430 --> 01:03:55,859
you know kind of manifestations of a

1686
01:04:00,770 --> 01:03:58,440
deeper process at work and again what we

1687
01:04:03,349 --> 01:04:00,780
touched on earlier in this episode how

1688
01:04:05,870 --> 01:04:03,359
it's happening everywhere all around us

1689
01:04:08,230 --> 01:04:05,880
all the time whether you're on the

1690
01:04:11,089 --> 01:04:08,240
sports field or you're in the boardroom

1691
01:04:13,190 --> 01:04:11,099
you know you're participating in this

1692
01:04:15,650 --> 01:04:13,200
kind of activity

1693
01:04:17,750 --> 01:04:15,660
um and and it's and it's tangible you

1694
01:04:20,450 --> 01:04:17,760
can literally feel what whether or not

1695
01:04:22,609 --> 01:04:20,460
you are you are doing this as a group or

1696
01:04:24,890 --> 01:04:22,619
you are not doing it and and people

1697
01:04:27,410 --> 01:04:24,900
people will leave that room or leave

1698
01:04:28,549 --> 01:04:27,420
that experience and and tell in an

1699
01:04:29,930 --> 01:04:28,559
individual person who would be

1700
01:04:32,030 --> 01:04:29,940
interviewing them you know I felt like

1701
01:04:33,710 --> 01:04:32,040
we were totally not on the same page

1702
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:33,720
everybody was you know all over the

1703
01:04:37,250 --> 01:04:35,760
place and you know as a result it's just

1704
01:04:39,049 --> 01:04:37,260
complete chaos and I'll feel like we're

1705
01:04:40,910 --> 01:04:39,059
gonna be able to execute on on our

1706
01:04:43,990 --> 01:04:40,920
vision or whatever it is there's

1707
01:04:47,809 --> 01:04:44,000
something too the need for us to

1708
01:04:50,329 --> 01:04:47,819
communicate and kind of merge our our

1709
01:04:52,849 --> 01:04:50,339
minds together into a into a greater

1710
01:04:54,530 --> 01:04:52,859
mind so that we can actually achieve

1711
01:04:57,589 --> 01:04:54,540
things and maybe that that is one of our

1712
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:57,599
greatest skills is to is to do this and

1713
01:05:04,430 --> 01:05:00,480
it might also be why we see it like why

1714
01:05:07,430 --> 01:05:04,440
we see our species able to achieve so

1715
01:05:10,309 --> 01:05:07,440
much right because we are uh in the

1716
01:05:12,589 --> 01:05:10,319
chain of kind of conscious beings you

1717
01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:12,599
know higher up in the chain and so there

1718
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:16,079
is uh sort of a greater efficacy to that

1719
01:05:22,910 --> 01:05:19,440
Collective pooling of will than if you

1720
01:05:25,730 --> 01:05:22,920
had it happening you know I lower down

1721
01:05:27,530 --> 01:05:25,740
the chain of conscious and entity

1722
01:05:28,849 --> 01:05:27,540
um sorry I'm just kind of riffing here

1723
01:05:30,349 --> 01:05:28,859
on these Concepts but it's definitely

1724
01:05:32,089 --> 01:05:30,359
something to think about

1725
01:05:33,530 --> 01:05:32,099
I love it and I've got a story to share

1726
01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:33,540
on that but first of all I want to say

1727
01:05:37,329 --> 01:05:35,520
I'm pretty sure Nathan uses the word

1728
01:05:39,109 --> 01:05:37,339
efficacy as much as I use

1729
01:05:40,130 --> 01:05:39,119
discombobulating I think you know it

1730
01:05:41,569 --> 01:05:40,140
would not be a little more frames

1731
01:05:43,730 --> 01:05:41,579
episode without at least one mention of

1732
01:05:45,349 --> 01:05:43,740
that word it just sounds good

1733
01:05:47,470 --> 01:05:45,359
um but I was thinking about this

1734
01:05:49,970 --> 01:05:47,480
experience I had that felt almost like

1735
01:05:51,530 --> 01:05:49,980
being thrust into someone's like

1736
01:05:53,630 --> 01:05:51,540
religious experience or the religious

1737
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:53,640
tradition so I grew up in the Pacific

1738
01:05:59,270 --> 01:05:55,920
Northwest and one time a friend of mine

1739
01:06:00,950 --> 01:05:59,280
who attended Ole Miss University right

1740
01:06:02,089 --> 01:06:00,960
this was when I was living in Texas at

1741
01:06:06,470 --> 01:06:02,099
one point

1742
01:06:10,309 --> 01:06:06,480
um we drove to Alabama to see a game

1743
01:06:13,069 --> 01:06:10,319
between Ole Miss and Alabama right so I

1744
01:06:15,770 --> 01:06:13,079
had not been exposed to Deep South

1745
01:06:18,309 --> 01:06:15,780
football games right the man alive that

1746
01:06:20,450 --> 01:06:18,319
was like a religious experience right

1747
01:06:23,870 --> 01:06:20,460
everybody's like wearing the colors

1748
01:06:26,089 --> 01:06:23,880
right and you hear a Bama Bama Bama

1749
01:06:27,970 --> 01:06:26,099
everywhere right it's and it's like I

1750
01:06:30,829 --> 01:06:27,980
was at the Temple mount in Jerusalem

1751
01:06:33,049 --> 01:06:30,839
immediately the degree of like religious

1752
01:06:35,210 --> 01:06:33,059
fervor and I could see it like it's

1753
01:06:36,650 --> 01:06:35,220
almost like people didn't realize how

1754
01:06:39,289 --> 01:06:36,660
much they'd entered this completely

1755
01:06:41,450 --> 01:06:39,299
different mental Zone where it was

1756
01:06:44,150 --> 01:06:41,460
completely you know equivalent of like a

1757
01:06:46,490 --> 01:06:44,160
religious kind of tradition and

1758
01:06:48,109 --> 01:06:46,500
is funny because we think about America

1759
01:06:50,569 --> 01:06:48,119
today and many people

1760
01:06:51,829 --> 01:06:50,579
want to rush home to church why because

1761
01:06:54,049 --> 01:06:51,839
they want to watch the football game

1762
01:06:56,210 --> 01:06:54,059
right so it's like we're slowly trading

1763
01:06:59,270 --> 01:06:56,220
one religious uh tradition for another

1764
01:07:01,490 --> 01:06:59,280
right and and to your point we do seem

1765
01:07:05,450 --> 01:07:01,500
to do this right this is just what we do

1766
01:07:07,190 --> 01:07:05,460
so perhaps it behooves us to you know

1767
01:07:08,990 --> 01:07:07,200
give some forethought to what kind of

1768
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,000
things we want to give life to because

1769
01:07:13,010 --> 01:07:11,520
as I said at first we generate them and

1770
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,020
then they generate us it's kind of like

1771
01:07:17,809 --> 01:07:15,599
that saying about habits you know we

1772
01:07:19,910 --> 01:07:17,819
form our habits than our habits form us

1773
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:19,920
right so we really want to give some

1774
01:07:24,589 --> 01:07:21,599
four thoughts this because the things we

1775
01:07:27,109 --> 01:07:24,599
give life to will very much dictate our

1776
01:07:28,730 --> 01:07:27,119
ongoing existence from then on so when

1777
01:07:31,069 --> 01:07:28,740
we think about the challenges the

1778
01:07:34,069 --> 01:07:31,079
problems in the world I think we need to

1779
01:07:36,770 --> 01:07:34,079
have all that in mind before we uh sort

1780
01:07:38,569 --> 01:07:36,780
of more methodically really give some

1781
01:07:39,549 --> 01:07:38,579
forethought to what we might give life

1782
01:07:42,049 --> 01:07:39,559
to you

1783
01:07:44,450 --> 01:07:42,059
well and here let me just throw another

1784
01:07:48,770 --> 01:07:44,460
curveball in this in this conversation

1785
01:07:51,650 --> 01:07:48,780
because it's not only the uh

1786
01:07:54,529 --> 01:07:51,660
the things which we choose to devote our

1787
01:07:56,990 --> 01:07:54,539
energy to and thoughts to but let us not

1788
01:08:01,130 --> 01:07:57,000
forget there are other intelligences at

1789
01:08:03,770 --> 01:08:01,140
work and they too have uh you know kind

1790
01:08:05,870 --> 01:08:03,780
of thought forms and energetic

1791
01:08:08,569 --> 01:08:05,880
Tendencies and

1792
01:08:10,609 --> 01:08:08,579
um and they're not all aligned right so

1793
01:08:14,210 --> 01:08:10,619
it just as you talked about earlier some

1794
01:08:17,689 --> 01:08:14,220
of them uh operate in a place where

1795
01:08:20,870 --> 01:08:17,699
they have a greater Mastery over what we

1796
01:08:24,289 --> 01:08:20,880
know as reality because of their

1797
01:08:26,570 --> 01:08:24,299
presence to or connectivity to that base

1798
01:08:29,990 --> 01:08:26,580
layer in a way that we're just not as

1799
01:08:32,570 --> 01:08:30,000
Adept at using uh they have their own

1800
01:08:35,269 --> 01:08:32,580
agendas and and have their own influence

1801
01:08:38,090 --> 01:08:35,279
and and those agendas and influence

1802
01:08:40,430 --> 01:08:38,100
intersect with our experience The Human

1803
01:08:43,370 --> 01:08:40,440
Experience and to what degree could we

1804
01:08:47,269 --> 01:08:43,380
chart some of those influences in

1805
01:08:49,970 --> 01:08:47,279
humanity over time and uh you know where

1806
01:08:51,650 --> 01:08:49,980
we might be going uh where we may have

1807
01:08:54,229 --> 01:08:51,660
come from

1808
01:08:56,450 --> 01:08:54,239
um what you know kind of here we're

1809
01:08:59,329 --> 01:08:56,460
listening to what kind of what kind of

1810
01:09:01,849 --> 01:08:59,339
uh influence we're listening to there or

1811
01:09:03,950 --> 01:09:01,859
not right because I think we are at a

1812
01:09:06,709 --> 01:09:03,960
pivotal point in our in our history at

1813
01:09:10,510 --> 01:09:06,719
least it feels that way where we've got

1814
01:09:15,289 --> 01:09:10,520
uh this tremendous uh lure of Technology

1815
01:09:16,970 --> 01:09:15,299
uh that is not necessarily a mental uh

1816
01:09:19,490 --> 01:09:16,980
you know thing it's it's something that

1817
01:09:21,169 --> 01:09:19,500
we have created that stands apart from

1818
01:09:23,590 --> 01:09:21,179
ornamentation

1819
01:09:26,329 --> 01:09:23,600
uh and it often kind of

1820
01:09:28,849 --> 01:09:26,339
completely absorbs us on an individual

1821
01:09:31,970 --> 01:09:28,859
level and almost hypnotizes this you

1822
01:09:33,590 --> 01:09:31,980
could say and then we have uh and other

1823
01:09:36,289 --> 01:09:33,600
practices that are much more ancient

1824
01:09:38,450 --> 01:09:36,299
that don't involve staring at a screen

1825
01:09:39,709 --> 01:09:38,460
or an app or whatever playing a game all

1826
01:09:41,390 --> 01:09:39,719
day long

1827
01:09:42,829 --> 01:09:41,400
yeah it's so fascinated I think you

1828
01:09:44,510 --> 01:09:42,839
bring this up and this feels like a

1829
01:09:47,209 --> 01:09:44,520
bizarre synchronicity right here because

1830
01:09:49,789 --> 01:09:47,219
as you were talking I was going to help

1831
01:09:51,769 --> 01:09:49,799
segue us into bringing this full circle

1832
01:09:53,870 --> 01:09:51,779
and we began talking about religious

1833
01:09:56,570 --> 01:09:53,880
kind of Rights and rituals and how that

1834
01:09:59,630 --> 01:09:56,580
is married with belief and practice and

1835
01:10:02,270 --> 01:09:59,640
and forms or informs the identity of a

1836
01:10:03,770 --> 01:10:02,280
group right but there's been this

1837
01:10:07,970 --> 01:10:03,780
recognition from people like chocolate

1838
01:10:10,490 --> 01:10:07,980
that we are seeing

1839
01:10:11,990 --> 01:10:10,500
ufology in some ways become that like a

1840
01:10:13,370 --> 01:10:12,000
new kind of religion right and he really

1841
01:10:16,070 --> 01:10:13,380
thought in the 70s that this was going

1842
01:10:17,930 --> 01:10:16,080
to be the next fad was that this belief

1843
01:10:19,610 --> 01:10:17,940
in these space brothers and whatnot was

1844
01:10:21,590 --> 01:10:19,620
going to give birth to this new kind of

1845
01:10:23,930 --> 01:10:21,600
religion and we can get to that but

1846
01:10:26,270 --> 01:10:23,940
before I was gonna get there I was

1847
01:10:27,830 --> 01:10:26,280
reading this quote that I wrote down

1848
01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:27,840
and I was trying to remember the source

1849
01:10:32,810 --> 01:10:30,000
for this quote was I was like was this

1850
01:10:34,550 --> 01:10:32,820
Wikipedia was just an article and then

1851
01:10:36,850 --> 01:10:34,560
as you said AI I'm like oh yeah I just

1852
01:10:40,010 --> 01:10:36,860
punched in Jacques valet to Chachi

1853
01:10:42,890 --> 01:10:40,020
punched out into this three paragraph

1854
01:10:44,689 --> 01:10:42,900
summary of his work right pertaining to

1855
01:10:46,130 --> 01:10:44,699
the UFO phenomenon and religion well I

1856
01:10:49,010 --> 01:10:46,140
think I asked one question and got this

1857
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:49,020
you know really robust pretty detailed

1858
01:10:55,550 --> 01:10:53,040
uh explanation and uh there was no uh

1859
01:10:57,169 --> 01:10:55,560
Source other than this AI rate which we

1860
01:10:59,930 --> 01:10:57,179
generated and now it's generating back

1861
01:11:02,390 --> 01:10:59,940
right so there you go the real

1862
01:11:05,390 --> 01:11:02,400
complexities that presents us with

1863
01:11:07,610 --> 01:11:05,400
but let me just read this AI generated

1864
01:11:09,050 --> 01:11:07,620
uh notion here and then we can jump into

1865
01:11:10,490 --> 01:11:09,060
this so

1866
01:11:12,290 --> 01:11:10,500
um

1867
01:11:14,209 --> 01:11:12,300
Jean filet is a french-born computer

1868
01:11:16,370 --> 01:11:14,219
scientist venture capitalist and

1869
01:11:18,890 --> 01:11:16,380
ufologist who is written extensively

1870
01:11:20,689 --> 01:11:18,900
about the UFO phenomenon he is known for

1871
01:11:23,270 --> 01:11:20,699
his skeptical and interdisciplinary

1872
01:11:25,370 --> 01:11:23,280
approach to the study of UFOs and has

1873
01:11:27,350 --> 01:11:25,380
made a number of observations about the

1874
01:11:28,430 --> 01:11:27,360
potential links between UFOs and

1875
01:11:30,229 --> 01:11:28,440
religion

1876
01:11:32,209 --> 01:11:30,239
ballet has argued that the UFO

1877
01:11:34,130 --> 01:11:32,219
phenomenon shares many characteristics

1878
01:11:37,010 --> 01:11:34,140
with traditional religious experiences

1879
01:11:39,290 --> 01:11:37,020
he has noted that both involve

1880
01:11:41,930 --> 01:11:39,300
encounters with beings or entities that

1881
01:11:44,870 --> 01:11:41,940
are seen as powerful mysterious and

1882
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:44,880
often Beyond human comprehension ballet

1883
01:11:48,830 --> 01:11:46,560
has also suggested that the UFO

1884
01:11:51,229 --> 01:11:48,840
phenomenon has the potential to reshape

1885
01:11:53,570 --> 01:11:51,239
our understanding of religion and

1886
01:11:55,850 --> 01:11:53,580
spirituality by challenging traditional

1887
01:11:57,290 --> 01:11:55,860
religious beliefs and offering new ways

1888
01:12:00,110 --> 01:11:57,300
of thinking about the nature of the

1889
01:12:02,149 --> 01:12:00,120
universe and our place in it at the same

1890
01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:02,159
time valet has been critical of what he

1891
01:12:07,130 --> 01:12:04,800
sees as the uncritical acceptance of UFO

1892
01:12:09,410 --> 01:12:07,140
sightings and encounters by some members

1893
01:12:11,090 --> 01:12:09,420
of the UFO Community he has argued that

1894
01:12:13,490 --> 01:12:11,100
many of these sightings can be explained

1895
01:12:15,470 --> 01:12:13,500
by natural or man-made phenomena and

1896
01:12:17,330 --> 01:12:15,480
that the focus on physical evidence and

1897
01:12:19,910 --> 01:12:17,340
sightings can obscure the deeper

1898
01:12:22,729 --> 01:12:19,920
psychological and cultural factors that

1899
01:12:24,709 --> 01:12:22,739
contribute to the UFO phenomenon overall

1900
01:12:27,110 --> 01:12:24,719
belay's work on UFOs who religion

1901
01:12:29,570 --> 01:12:27,120
highlights the complex and multifaceted

1902
01:12:31,490 --> 01:12:29,580
nature of the gofel phenomenon and

1903
01:12:34,010 --> 01:12:31,500
suggests that it is worthy of serious

1904
01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:34,020
study and Analysis by Scholars and

1905
01:12:39,590 --> 01:12:35,760
researchers for a wide range of

1906
01:12:42,649 --> 01:12:39,600
disciplines unquote chat GPT thank you

1907
01:12:44,930 --> 01:12:42,659
for AI non-human intelligence

1908
01:12:47,330 --> 01:12:44,940
that giving us an answer what are your

1909
01:12:49,550 --> 01:12:47,340
thoughts on that well you know Jacques

1910
01:12:52,070 --> 01:12:49,560
uh of course I'm a big fan of his work

1911
01:12:55,490 --> 01:12:52,080
and he's been highly influential on me

1912
01:12:57,890 --> 01:12:55,500
and how I approach this subject but also

1913
01:13:01,130 --> 01:12:57,900
Jacques is a technologist right here's

1914
01:13:04,610 --> 01:13:01,140
somebody who uh is very much in the

1915
01:13:08,630 --> 01:13:04,620
technology camp but has tried his best

1916
01:13:13,070 --> 01:13:08,640
to interpret all of these

1917
01:13:15,229 --> 01:13:13,080
anomalous experiences uh through a lens

1918
01:13:17,450 --> 01:13:15,239
that that at least I think he's making

1919
01:13:19,790 --> 01:13:17,460
the attempt to put forward a new kind of

1920
01:13:21,709 --> 01:13:19,800
science a new new way of studying this

1921
01:13:24,590 --> 01:13:21,719
that the traditional means and

1922
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:24,600
methodologies of science or categories

1923
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:28,080
of science just don't quite work I think

1924
01:13:31,490 --> 01:13:29,760
he's right to

1925
01:13:33,470 --> 01:13:31,500
um or you know these chat gbt's

1926
01:13:38,330 --> 01:13:33,480
characterization of him you know right

1927
01:13:40,430 --> 01:13:38,340
and to uh be wary a little bit of you

1928
01:13:42,950 --> 01:13:40,440
know kind of the religious uh qualities

1929
01:13:45,470 --> 01:13:42,960
of ufology

1930
01:13:48,410 --> 01:13:45,480
um but but personally I'm

1931
01:13:51,770 --> 01:13:48,420
the term religion is off-putting to me

1932
01:13:55,070 --> 01:13:51,780
because I think we have uh

1933
01:13:58,729 --> 01:13:55,080
it's become a a pejorative and a crutch

1934
01:14:00,890 --> 01:13:58,739
as well uh and it obscures the fact that

1935
01:14:03,709 --> 01:14:00,900
we that that belief is something that we

1936
01:14:07,070 --> 01:14:03,719
all actually share we all have in common

1937
01:14:10,790 --> 01:14:07,080
so just because I can

1938
01:14:12,530 --> 01:14:10,800
kind of categorize and list out a series

1939
01:14:15,530 --> 01:14:12,540
of beliefs and say hey there's a

1940
01:14:17,750 --> 01:14:15,540
religion and I'm not doing that uh it

1941
01:14:21,649 --> 01:14:17,760
makes us feel very comfortable because

1942
01:14:24,590 --> 01:14:21,659
we have placed religion in this taboo

1943
01:14:27,290 --> 01:14:24,600
sort of category even though ignoring

1944
01:14:29,030 --> 01:14:27,300
the fact that uh well I you know I'm

1945
01:14:31,310 --> 01:14:29,040
supposed to do these things at work I'm

1946
01:14:33,830 --> 01:14:31,320
supposed to uh you know answer my email

1947
01:14:36,530 --> 01:14:33,840
and I'm supposed to and I'll praise the

1948
01:14:37,790 --> 01:14:36,540
almighty dollar and invest in my 401k

1949
01:14:39,649 --> 01:14:37,800
and these are things that are going to

1950
01:14:41,450 --> 01:14:39,659
make you you know my life better and if

1951
01:14:42,830 --> 01:14:41,460
I don't do them then I'm gonna have a

1952
01:14:44,630 --> 01:14:42,840
you know you can see where I'm going

1953
01:14:47,149 --> 01:14:44,640
with this their their religious

1954
01:14:49,310 --> 01:14:47,159
practices in their own way just because

1955
01:14:50,930 --> 01:14:49,320
we have kind of labeled them or

1956
01:14:53,229 --> 01:14:50,940
characterized them as something other

1957
01:14:56,030 --> 01:14:53,239
than religion they are more socially

1958
01:14:58,430 --> 01:14:56,040
acceptable palatable and I think that

1959
01:15:01,970 --> 01:14:58,440
that's just doing a disservice to belief

1960
01:15:04,310 --> 01:15:01,980
period right we we all have beliefs we

1961
01:15:06,410 --> 01:15:04,320
all have narrative structures that

1962
01:15:08,050 --> 01:15:06,420
inform the way in which we live let's

1963
01:15:12,229 --> 01:15:08,060
just look at it from that perspective

1964
01:15:15,229 --> 01:15:12,239
and uh and and kind of issue this uh

1965
01:15:17,870 --> 01:15:15,239
this religion label that I think is

1966
01:15:20,390 --> 01:15:17,880
holding back the conversation uh when it

1967
01:15:23,510 --> 01:15:20,400
comes to ufology in particular

1968
01:15:25,570 --> 01:15:23,520
you know I do think that uh the

1969
01:15:29,270 --> 01:15:25,580
anomalous experiences that we hear about

1970
01:15:31,790 --> 01:15:29,280
should and do inform our metaphysical

1971
01:15:34,610 --> 01:15:31,800
conceptions of reality and what we've

1972
01:15:36,530 --> 01:15:34,620
been arguing on this show and the time

1973
01:15:39,290 --> 01:15:36,540
and time again is that that needs to

1974
01:15:40,910 --> 01:15:39,300
happen if you aren't observing these

1975
01:15:43,490 --> 01:15:40,920
experiences or going through them

1976
01:15:45,770 --> 01:15:43,500
yourself and coming away with a sense

1977
01:15:49,010 --> 01:15:45,780
that ah you know the narrative framework

1978
01:15:50,630 --> 01:15:49,020
that I had before like is isn't broken

1979
01:15:53,209 --> 01:15:50,640
if you're just thinking everything's

1980
01:15:55,490 --> 01:15:53,219
fine I got to keep you know bowing at

1981
01:15:57,770 --> 01:15:55,500
the feet of the at the scientific method

1982
01:16:00,770 --> 01:15:57,780
for example uh the exclusion of maybe

1983
01:16:03,050 --> 01:16:00,780
new models of reality that might have a

1984
01:16:06,470 --> 01:16:03,060
better explanatory power you're missing

1985
01:16:10,189 --> 01:16:06,480
the point right and so this is how

1986
01:16:13,130 --> 01:16:10,199
reality does work that that that it the

1987
01:16:15,169 --> 01:16:13,140
sort of path of time the trajectory of

1988
01:16:16,630 --> 01:16:15,179
time we see this in history so this

1989
01:16:21,050 --> 01:16:16,640
isn't anything new

1990
01:16:23,570 --> 01:16:21,060
that reality is confrontational

1991
01:16:25,850 --> 01:16:23,580
to our conceptions of it

1992
01:16:27,290 --> 01:16:25,860
and it will always be so

1993
01:16:29,030 --> 01:16:27,300
I don't know if I got to say that again

1994
01:16:32,750 --> 01:16:29,040
but you know reality is going to

1995
01:16:33,830 --> 01:16:32,760
challenge what we think is is really

1996
01:16:37,070 --> 01:16:33,840
happening

1997
01:16:40,370 --> 01:16:37,080
and it's doing that in in ways that are

1998
01:16:42,770 --> 01:16:40,380
interruptive that interject in our lived

1999
01:16:44,930 --> 01:16:42,780
experience and instead of us just saying

2000
01:16:46,550 --> 01:16:44,940
huh well that was you know that was a

2001
01:16:48,530 --> 01:16:46,560
coincidence or you know that was very

2002
01:16:51,649 --> 01:16:48,540
strange or that can't possibly happen so

2003
01:16:53,630 --> 01:16:51,659
I invented this out of whole cloth then

2004
01:16:55,850 --> 01:16:53,640
maybe for the first time we need to say

2005
01:16:57,709 --> 01:16:55,860
well geez like my model just isn't

2006
01:17:00,169 --> 01:16:57,719
working it's not it's not working it's

2007
01:17:01,729 --> 01:17:00,179
not fitting all of the things that are

2008
01:17:04,430 --> 01:17:01,739
really taking place

2009
01:17:07,189 --> 01:17:04,440
in reality and experience in The Human

2010
01:17:10,130 --> 01:17:07,199
Experience so you know I'm a proponent

2011
01:17:12,830 --> 01:17:10,140
as I know you are of trying to chart A

2012
01:17:13,810 --> 01:17:12,840
New Path forward here and with this

2013
01:17:17,090 --> 01:17:13,820
particular

2014
01:17:19,490 --> 01:17:17,100
uh you know sort of mintation process

2015
01:17:20,930 --> 01:17:19,500
and Collective mentation you know I

2016
01:17:22,970 --> 01:17:20,940
would argue that we need to begin

2017
01:17:25,910 --> 01:17:22,980
thinking in that way you know that the

2018
01:17:28,010 --> 01:17:25,920
more of us who who think in that way and

2019
01:17:30,290 --> 01:17:28,020
and uh adopt this kind of broader

2020
01:17:33,050 --> 01:17:30,300
framework then

2021
01:17:35,330 --> 01:17:33,060
the more comfortable we will be with the

2022
01:17:37,970 --> 01:17:35,340
way things actually are right will be

2023
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:37,980
less discomforted by the anomalous

2024
01:17:41,330 --> 01:17:39,840
because the anomalous is now a part of

2025
01:17:43,550 --> 01:17:41,340
the model

2026
01:17:44,810 --> 01:17:43,560
indeed what we're we're seeing is that

2027
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:44,820
all these things we now count as

2028
01:17:49,610 --> 01:17:46,560
anomalous are ultimately just reality

2029
01:17:52,669 --> 01:17:49,620
just aspects of reality we don't have uh

2030
01:17:54,110 --> 01:17:52,679
icons for so far in our an interface

2031
01:17:55,490 --> 01:17:54,120
a couple of thoughts occurred to me and

2032
01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:55,500
I was thinking we could you know finish

2033
01:18:00,950 --> 01:17:59,280
with a couple of quotes by valet on the

2034
01:18:03,290 --> 01:18:00,960
intersection between UFOs and religion

2035
01:18:04,790 --> 01:18:03,300
which is so been a central topic for us

2036
01:18:07,250 --> 01:18:04,800
on this show because of our background

2037
01:18:10,189 --> 01:18:07,260
right having deep histories both of us

2038
01:18:11,570 --> 01:18:10,199
in those two fields

2039
01:18:14,270 --> 01:18:11,580
but I think about what we were seeing

2040
01:18:16,970 --> 01:18:14,280
with AI and I think as much as we

2041
01:18:19,070 --> 01:18:16,980
recognize now that there's this real

2042
01:18:20,630 --> 01:18:19,080
threat that AI poses on a couple

2043
01:18:22,370 --> 01:18:20,640
different levels right on the one hand

2044
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:22,380
because there's this concern that it

2045
01:18:26,810 --> 01:18:24,480
could go Rogue and because it's coming

2046
01:18:29,030 --> 01:18:26,820
up with Solutions now that even the the

2047
01:18:30,770 --> 01:18:29,040
people with a deep interest you know

2048
01:18:32,149 --> 01:18:30,780
deep insiders understanding how the

2049
01:18:34,010 --> 01:18:32,159
models are supposed to work how the

2050
01:18:35,090 --> 01:18:34,020
learning the Deep learning is supposed

2051
01:18:36,649 --> 01:18:35,100
to happen

2052
01:18:39,110 --> 01:18:36,659
don't really understand how it's

2053
01:18:41,270 --> 01:18:39,120
achieving the answers is it's coming to

2054
01:18:44,810 --> 01:18:41,280
which you know kind of brings to mind

2055
01:18:46,430 --> 01:18:44,820
you know Terminator kind of uh memories

2056
01:18:47,990 --> 01:18:46,440
of something that at some point just

2057
01:18:48,770 --> 01:18:48,000
takes over right

2058
01:18:51,290 --> 01:18:48,780
um

2059
01:18:54,290 --> 01:18:51,300
but also another reason why it's it's

2060
01:18:55,850 --> 01:18:54,300
problematic is that our own biases are

2061
01:18:58,189 --> 01:18:55,860
programmed into it so when we think

2062
01:19:00,110 --> 01:18:58,199
about this generative process if we

2063
01:19:02,990 --> 01:19:00,120
generate something that then generates

2064
01:19:05,750 --> 01:19:03,000
something back to us we can only give

2065
01:19:07,370 --> 01:19:05,760
birth to a kind of AI at our level of

2066
01:19:09,530 --> 01:19:07,380
Consciousness and we're going to seed it

2067
01:19:11,689 --> 01:19:09,540
with all of our biases so

2068
01:19:14,810 --> 01:19:11,699
that is concerning because it's maybe

2069
01:19:17,149 --> 01:19:14,820
insanely powerful but also having the

2070
01:19:19,010 --> 01:19:17,159
inherent limitations of our old biases

2071
01:19:21,290 --> 01:19:19,020
and so what is that going to produce it

2072
01:19:23,750 --> 01:19:21,300
could be a frankensteinian kind of thing

2073
01:19:25,610 --> 01:19:23,760
again right so this is something to

2074
01:19:28,550 --> 01:19:25,620
think about I think as much as everyone

2075
01:19:30,470 --> 01:19:28,560
rails against AI if we had a sufficient

2076
01:19:32,750 --> 01:19:30,480
level of consciousness of a you know

2077
01:19:35,390 --> 01:19:32,760
center of gravity on the planet where we

2078
01:19:38,350 --> 01:19:35,400
were actually we focused and focused on

2079
01:19:40,729 --> 01:19:38,360
the greatest good then AI could be in an

2080
01:19:44,149 --> 01:19:40,739
incredibly powerful tool that could help

2081
01:19:45,490 --> 01:19:44,159
us conquer and Tackle you know climate

2082
01:19:48,169 --> 01:19:45,500
change and

2083
01:19:50,270 --> 01:19:48,179
discrepancies and resource distribution

2084
01:19:52,189 --> 01:19:50,280
across the planet it could help us call

2085
01:19:56,149 --> 01:19:52,199
a solution so we hadn't even considered

2086
01:19:58,850 --> 01:19:56,159
yet right but as long as we instead are

2087
01:20:00,770 --> 01:19:58,860
divisive and convinced of this illusion

2088
01:20:02,870 --> 01:20:00,780
of Separation then we're going to have

2089
01:20:05,270 --> 01:20:02,880
Bad actors who get access to these

2090
01:20:06,890 --> 01:20:05,280
models who are going to just gain the

2091
01:20:08,570 --> 01:20:06,900
system and figure out how to become rich

2092
01:20:11,030 --> 01:20:08,580
at everybody else's cost right so you've

2093
01:20:13,189 --> 01:20:11,040
got these 0 throw some game players

2094
01:20:15,470 --> 01:20:13,199
playing with AI and so it's going to

2095
01:20:16,850 --> 01:20:15,480
give you back that our solution based on

2096
01:20:18,770 --> 01:20:16,860
your level of Consciousness which is

2097
01:20:20,870 --> 01:20:18,780
what is kind of scary about it but again

2098
01:20:22,189 --> 01:20:20,880
I just want to underlying that the real

2099
01:20:25,370 --> 01:20:22,199
problem there is the lack of

2100
01:20:27,470 --> 01:20:25,380
Consciousness not AI in itself right

2101
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:27,480
but a couple of thoughts um or a couple

2102
01:20:31,729 --> 01:20:29,760
quotes I'd like to bring up here as we

2103
01:20:33,649 --> 01:20:31,739
sort of come to a close here

2104
01:20:34,669 --> 01:20:33,659
let's let's Riff on this so I'll say

2105
01:20:36,950 --> 01:20:34,679
this to you and then you can have the

2106
01:20:39,290 --> 01:20:36,960
first go at it so valet said the

2107
01:20:41,870 --> 01:20:39,300
symbolic displays seen by the abductees

2108
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:41,880
is identical to the type of initiation

2109
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:44,880
ritual or astral voyage that is embedded

2110
01:20:49,010 --> 01:20:46,560
in the occult traditions of every

2111
01:20:51,310 --> 01:20:49,020
culture the structure of abduction

2112
01:20:54,470 --> 01:20:51,320
stories is identical to that of a cult

2113
01:20:56,990 --> 01:20:54,480
initiation rituals the UFO beings of

2114
01:20:59,330 --> 01:20:57,000
today belong to the same class of

2115
01:21:02,270 --> 01:20:59,340
manifestation as the occult entities

2116
01:21:04,610 --> 01:21:02,280
that were described in centuries past

2117
01:21:06,830 --> 01:21:04,620
unquote over to you

2118
01:21:08,750 --> 01:21:06,840
right so it's all a cult man that's what

2119
01:21:11,990 --> 01:21:08,760
I no it's not water I'm gonna go with

2120
01:21:13,669 --> 01:21:12,000
that uh it's demons so no I mean I think

2121
01:21:15,470 --> 01:21:13,679
that's where he's going with that I I

2122
01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:15,480
hope and that people

2123
01:21:20,149 --> 01:21:18,000
often take it where I just took it that

2124
01:21:22,970 --> 01:21:20,159
it must be that

2125
01:21:24,590 --> 01:21:22,980
um but you know here we have something

2126
01:21:26,570 --> 01:21:24,600
that has taken place throughout history

2127
01:21:30,770 --> 01:21:26,580
that is that is part of the human

2128
01:21:32,689 --> 01:21:30,780
experience and the things which we know

2129
01:21:35,030 --> 01:21:32,699
about in our history that look like

2130
01:21:38,810 --> 01:21:35,040
religious tradition all got their start

2131
01:21:42,530 --> 01:21:38,820
from these same experiences

2132
01:21:44,750 --> 01:21:42,540
and and they are profound and uh and

2133
01:21:46,970 --> 01:21:44,760
dynamic and they and they impact our

2134
01:21:48,770 --> 01:21:46,980
civilization I mean geez look at the way

2135
01:21:51,830 --> 01:21:48,780
these uh Traditions have impacted our

2136
01:21:54,050 --> 01:21:51,840
entire world and still do right now we

2137
01:21:56,750 --> 01:21:54,060
were fighting Wars to this day over

2138
01:22:00,050 --> 01:21:56,760
differences of belief that have uh

2139
01:22:03,050 --> 01:22:00,060
stemmed from these initiative anomalous

2140
01:22:06,410 --> 01:22:03,060
experiences and so

2141
01:22:08,870 --> 01:22:06,420
that should give us pause right

2142
01:22:11,570 --> 01:22:08,880
um and uh you know some I might say well

2143
01:22:13,130 --> 01:22:11,580
see like that's the bad you know these

2144
01:22:14,750 --> 01:22:13,140
are bad entities because they're kind of

2145
01:22:16,250 --> 01:22:14,760
creating these different religions and

2146
01:22:18,649 --> 01:22:16,260
that we're fighting with each other I

2147
01:22:20,390 --> 01:22:18,659
mean you know maybe but I think it's

2148
01:22:22,610 --> 01:22:20,400
more of an interpretive problem you know

2149
01:22:25,610 --> 01:22:22,620
we we've interpreted these experiences

2150
01:22:27,709 --> 01:22:25,620
really poorly uh just like children who

2151
01:22:29,270 --> 01:22:27,719
are excellent listeners but poor

2152
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:29,280
interpreters and that's exactly what we

2153
01:22:32,930 --> 01:22:31,440
are you know we've been confronted with

2154
01:22:34,550 --> 01:22:32,940
these very strange things and we've

2155
01:22:38,149 --> 01:22:34,560
we've run off with our interpretations

2156
01:22:40,430 --> 01:22:38,159
that of course mirror the kinds of uh

2157
01:22:42,470 --> 01:22:40,440
World Views that we had when we

2158
01:22:44,870 --> 01:22:42,480
experience them you know so whether

2159
01:22:47,030 --> 01:22:44,880
you're uh Chris Bledsoe and you kind of

2160
01:22:50,390 --> 01:22:47,040
overlay you know much more kind of

2161
01:22:53,689 --> 01:22:50,400
Christian sort of fat fabric onto the

2162
01:22:56,090 --> 01:22:53,699
experience or you know your uh you know

2163
01:22:58,130 --> 01:22:56,100
Paul from from the Bible you know has

2164
01:23:00,110 --> 01:22:58,140
his his Damascus Road experience and

2165
01:23:02,510 --> 01:23:00,120
well he comes from a Jewish tradition

2166
01:23:04,610 --> 01:23:02,520
and so this is you know he's starting

2167
01:23:06,950 --> 01:23:04,620
churches and he's thinking that this is

2168
01:23:09,590 --> 01:23:06,960
an extension of of that of that Jewish

2169
01:23:12,649 --> 01:23:09,600
tradition and and what

2170
01:23:14,990 --> 01:23:12,659
uh it's a natural thing to do right but

2171
01:23:16,010 --> 01:23:15,000
I think it may be missing the underlying

2172
01:23:19,130 --> 01:23:16,020
point

2173
01:23:21,530 --> 01:23:19,140
right and I I think relay is is sort of

2174
01:23:25,430 --> 01:23:21,540
admonishing us if you will to use a

2175
01:23:27,470 --> 01:23:25,440
religious term or uh exhorting uh to uh

2176
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:27,480
be aware of

2177
01:23:31,790 --> 01:23:29,280
to look deeper than the superficial

2178
01:23:34,010 --> 01:23:31,800
layer right so he's talking about when

2179
01:23:35,990 --> 01:23:34,020
you get past some of the the the near of

2180
01:23:38,750 --> 01:23:36,000
like being a technological kind of thing

2181
01:23:41,330 --> 01:23:38,760
the UFO phenomenon underlyingly you seem

2182
01:23:43,729 --> 01:23:41,340
to have events that mirror initiation

2183
01:23:45,709 --> 01:23:43,739
rituals from you know occulted

2184
01:23:47,689 --> 01:23:45,719
Traditions or from astral Voyage you

2185
01:23:51,649 --> 01:23:47,699
know even theosophical Society kind of

2186
01:23:54,770 --> 01:23:51,659
Notions and so it may just be that these

2187
01:23:56,870 --> 01:23:54,780
others perhaps are changing the surface

2188
01:23:59,930 --> 01:23:56,880
veneer changing the the nature of the

2189
01:24:01,370 --> 01:23:59,940
ritual let the underlying process is

2190
01:24:03,250 --> 01:24:01,380
still the same right the underlying

2191
01:24:05,510 --> 01:24:03,260
mechanism is that it somehow produces

2192
01:24:07,610 --> 01:24:05,520
generates belief which is in itself

2193
01:24:09,950 --> 01:24:07,620
generative and this can be part of the

2194
01:24:12,169 --> 01:24:09,960
the control system that belay has talked

2195
01:24:14,810 --> 01:24:12,179
about that these rituals evolve over

2196
01:24:17,209 --> 01:24:14,820
time as we fall to help steer our

2197
01:24:19,070 --> 01:24:17,219
civilization perhaps right and I think

2198
01:24:21,290 --> 01:24:19,080
about like little kids who see one day

2199
01:24:23,630 --> 01:24:21,300
they see Dad and then they see Santa

2200
01:24:25,070 --> 01:24:23,640
Claus and then they see Sasquatch and

2201
01:24:27,470 --> 01:24:25,080
maybe it's all dead just wearing

2202
01:24:29,510 --> 01:24:27,480
different costumes he is not to get

2203
01:24:31,310 --> 01:24:29,520
caught up on studying Sasquatch or

2204
01:24:33,410 --> 01:24:31,320
studying Santa Claus but why is it that

2205
01:24:35,149 --> 01:24:33,420
Dad dresses up in these different things

2206
01:24:36,770 --> 01:24:35,159
what kind of ritual is he trying to

2207
01:24:37,610 --> 01:24:36,780
produce there right that's the end of

2208
01:24:40,130 --> 01:24:37,620
the

2209
01:24:42,470 --> 01:24:40,140
so a little let's go into one final uh

2210
01:24:45,290 --> 01:24:42,480
quote and we'll both Riff on that and it

2211
01:24:47,630 --> 01:24:45,300
again draws together UFOs and religion

2212
01:24:49,550 --> 01:24:47,640
ballet said quote I think the stage is

2213
01:24:52,669 --> 01:24:49,560
set for the appearance of new faiths

2214
01:24:54,410 --> 01:24:52,679
center on centered on the UFO belief to

2215
01:24:57,350 --> 01:24:54,420
a greater degree than all phenomena

2216
01:24:59,570 --> 01:24:57,360
modern science is confronting the UFO

2217
01:25:02,030 --> 01:24:59,580
can Inspire ah the sense of the

2218
01:25:04,370 --> 01:25:02,040
smallness of man and an idea of the

2219
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:04,380
possibility of contact with the cosmic

2220
01:25:08,810 --> 01:25:06,719
the religions we have briefly surveyed

2221
01:25:11,390 --> 01:25:08,820
began with a miraculous experiences of

2222
01:25:13,130 --> 01:25:11,400
one person but today there are thousands

2223
01:25:15,709 --> 01:25:13,140
for whom to believe in otherworldly

2224
01:25:17,930 --> 01:25:15,719
contact is based on intimate conviction

2225
01:25:20,990 --> 01:25:17,940
drawn for what they regard as personal

2226
01:25:22,250 --> 01:25:21,000
contact with UFOs and their occupants

2227
01:25:24,010 --> 01:25:22,260
unquote

2228
01:25:27,649 --> 01:25:24,020
over to you

2229
01:25:30,169 --> 01:25:27,659
yeah I think uh it is the dawn of a new

2230
01:25:31,130 --> 01:25:30,179
day right this is the

2231
01:25:33,290 --> 01:25:31,140
um

2232
01:25:37,610 --> 01:25:33,300
in a way this is what I think it would

2233
01:25:40,790 --> 01:25:37,620
look like as we mature as a species that

2234
01:25:43,990 --> 01:25:40,800
as we kind of cross the threshold of

2235
01:25:47,149 --> 01:25:44,000
awareness of our place in reality itself

2236
01:25:51,189 --> 01:25:47,159
uh understanding that we are not alone

2237
01:25:54,550 --> 01:25:51,199
that we are not the top of that pyramid

2238
01:25:57,410 --> 01:25:54,560
that there's a whole lot more going on

2239
01:26:00,490 --> 01:25:57,420
and these experiences the UFO

2240
01:26:03,830 --> 01:26:00,500
experiences merely point to that truth

2241
01:26:08,030 --> 01:26:03,840
and in a way they kind of have been

2242
01:26:09,649 --> 01:26:08,040
preparing us mentally uh and and they've

2243
01:26:13,970 --> 01:26:09,659
been charting the course for us if you

2244
01:26:15,169 --> 01:26:13,980
will uh to to be prepared and ready for

2245
01:26:18,290 --> 01:26:15,179
that ultimate

2246
01:26:21,550 --> 01:26:18,300
uh revealing that revelatory moment

2247
01:26:24,950 --> 01:26:21,560
where all of our society on this planet

2248
01:26:27,890 --> 01:26:24,960
uh kind of steps into that new reality

2249
01:26:30,410 --> 01:26:27,900
and and I and I I really hope that we we

2250
01:26:32,990 --> 01:26:30,420
can do that in a way that is uh

2251
01:26:35,390 --> 01:26:33,000
productive and peaceful and uh and not

2252
01:26:38,209 --> 01:26:35,400
you know catastrophic

2253
01:26:40,550 --> 01:26:38,219
um and and to do that in that way you

2254
01:26:43,209 --> 01:26:40,560
have to be willing to part with a lot of

2255
01:26:46,070 --> 01:26:43,219
the Notions that we have held thus far

2256
01:26:48,950 --> 01:26:46,080
not only with our religious Traditions

2257
01:26:50,990 --> 01:26:48,960
that have been extremely tribalistic but

2258
01:26:54,050 --> 01:26:51,000
also with our you know kind of myopic

2259
01:26:56,270 --> 01:26:54,060
scientific thinking that has excluded

2260
01:26:58,250 --> 01:26:56,280
these greater realities for a very long

2261
01:26:59,570 --> 01:26:58,260
long time and denigrated them quite

2262
01:27:01,550 --> 01:26:59,580
frankly

2263
01:27:04,010 --> 01:27:01,560
indeed I think when I think about the

2264
01:27:06,229 --> 01:27:04,020
moral of the story of this episode it's

2265
01:27:09,129 --> 01:27:06,239
that these kind of

2266
01:27:11,450 --> 01:27:09,139
entities or thought forms or

2267
01:27:13,910 --> 01:27:11,460
constructions in which reality takes

2268
01:27:16,250 --> 01:27:13,920
place or happening anyway it's something

2269
01:27:19,550 --> 01:27:16,260
that is just part and parcel with being

2270
01:27:21,050 --> 01:27:19,560
a human being in a construct right a

2271
01:27:23,510 --> 01:27:21,060
physical construct is that part of that

2272
01:27:26,090 --> 01:27:23,520
is that we have these overarching

2273
01:27:28,250 --> 01:27:26,100
shaping narrative constructs by which we

2274
01:27:30,950 --> 01:27:28,260
give birth to and then they determine

2275
01:27:32,629 --> 01:27:30,960
much of how our lives will roll out and

2276
01:27:34,070 --> 01:27:32,639
so knowing that's the case and how we've

2277
01:27:35,450 --> 01:27:34,080
demonstrated time and time again in

2278
01:27:38,270 --> 01:27:35,460
today's episode that this happens

2279
01:27:40,250 --> 01:27:38,280
whether it's a you know a corporate logo

2280
01:27:42,470 --> 01:27:40,260
around Nike just do it you know or

2281
01:27:44,149 --> 01:27:42,480
Gatorade or something you know these

2282
01:27:46,669 --> 01:27:44,159
Notions that take on a life of their own

2283
01:27:48,410 --> 01:27:46,679
well after the the original Founders

2284
01:27:50,689 --> 01:27:48,420
have died and moved on right they take

2285
01:27:53,810 --> 01:27:50,699
on a life of their own and they dominate

2286
01:27:55,850 --> 01:27:53,820
our consumer habits and actually create

2287
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:55,860
a kind of sustaining nature you would

2288
01:27:59,090 --> 01:27:56,880
hope

2289
01:28:00,649 --> 01:27:59,100
for a society but what we've seen

2290
01:28:02,689 --> 01:28:00,659
actually is that and again in a kind of

2291
01:28:04,669 --> 01:28:02,699
frankenstinian way the things we've

2292
01:28:06,709 --> 01:28:04,679
given birth to this kind of corporate

2293
01:28:09,290 --> 01:28:06,719
structure this kind of materialist

2294
01:28:11,510 --> 01:28:09,300
structure this consumer oriented take

2295
01:28:13,610 --> 01:28:11,520
take take you know treat the Earth like

2296
01:28:15,229 --> 01:28:13,620
a commodity right this is what we've

2297
01:28:17,810 --> 01:28:15,239
given birth to and what we're now living

2298
01:28:19,729 --> 01:28:17,820
within that system right this is our our

2299
01:28:21,530 --> 01:28:19,739
new ritual right

2300
01:28:24,229 --> 01:28:21,540
that we live out on a day-to-day basis

2301
01:28:26,810 --> 01:28:24,239
as individuals as people groups as

2302
01:28:28,970 --> 01:28:26,820
civilizations as these things we call

2303
01:28:30,830 --> 01:28:28,980
corporations right as a thing on its own

2304
01:28:33,290 --> 01:28:30,840
kind of thing which is taking on a

2305
01:28:36,169 --> 01:28:33,300
strange kind of self-identity that has

2306
01:28:38,149 --> 01:28:36,179
really uh many ways perverted our

2307
01:28:39,410 --> 01:28:38,159
understanding of what is right

2308
01:28:41,450 --> 01:28:39,420
you know when you're when your only

2309
01:28:43,370 --> 01:28:41,460
notion is maximum value for the

2310
01:28:45,290 --> 01:28:43,380
shareholder regardless of any other

2311
01:28:46,790 --> 01:28:45,300
value then that's going to be that's

2312
01:28:49,490 --> 01:28:46,800
going to produce problems right so I

2313
01:28:51,290 --> 01:28:49,500
think the lesson here is we have knowing

2314
01:28:53,209 --> 01:28:51,300
these things will happen anyway we will

2315
01:28:55,610 --> 01:28:53,219
give birth to structures that then will

2316
01:28:58,430 --> 01:28:55,620
dictate the nature of our civilization

2317
01:29:00,169 --> 01:28:58,440
we should give serious forethought about

2318
01:29:03,290 --> 01:29:00,179
these things and try to act with the

2319
01:29:06,229 --> 01:29:03,300
greatest good in mind each time

2320
01:29:07,850 --> 01:29:06,239
yeah here here

2321
01:29:10,370 --> 01:29:07,860
um

2322
01:29:13,310 --> 01:29:10,380
another wonderful conversation I

2323
01:29:14,689 --> 01:29:13,320
appreciate uh your insights and and I

2324
01:29:17,270 --> 01:29:14,699
think this is one that I know we've been

2325
01:29:19,850 --> 01:29:17,280
wanting to touch on for a while and one

2326
01:29:21,890 --> 01:29:19,860
which uh informs I think the direction

2327
01:29:24,830 --> 01:29:21,900
of which we're going

2328
01:29:27,709 --> 01:29:24,840
um that more and more uh you know you

2329
01:29:29,090 --> 01:29:27,719
and I are both interested in looking for

2330
01:29:30,830 --> 01:29:29,100
ways that we can broaden the

2331
01:29:34,430 --> 01:29:30,840
conversation bring others into the

2332
01:29:37,970 --> 01:29:34,440
conversation and uh through that change

2333
01:29:41,629 --> 01:29:37,980
of thought uh Change the World

2334
01:29:42,890 --> 01:29:41,639
um in any which way we and we we can

2335
01:29:44,689 --> 01:29:42,900
um and our listeners are very much a

2336
01:29:48,470 --> 01:29:44,699
part of that so we thank you for tuning

2337
01:29:50,270 --> 01:29:48,480
in and uh we hope that you uh feel

2338
01:29:51,470 --> 01:29:50,280
comfortable sharing this episode or the

2339
01:29:53,990 --> 01:29:51,480
show with with your friends or

2340
01:29:56,570 --> 01:29:54,000
colleagues and uh bringing more folks

2341
01:29:58,970 --> 01:29:56,580
into this conversation

2342
01:30:01,010 --> 01:29:58,980
May the quality of our questions shaped

2343
01:30:03,649 --> 01:30:01,020
by a desire for understanding enhance

2344
01:30:05,270 --> 01:30:03,659
our journey of Discovery and may our

2345
01:30:07,370 --> 01:30:05,280
travels broaden the sphere of our

2346
01:30:10,930 --> 01:30:07,380
Consciousness reminding us that new

2347
01:30:13,430 --> 01:30:10,940
discoveries beget New Horizons as always

2348
01:30:18,260 --> 01:30:13,440
Adventure awaits and we'll see you next

2349
01:30:22,060 --> 01:30:20,870
[Music]

2350
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:22,070
thank you